The failure of Liberalism (Regressive left) to deal with Islam

[sworkhard]

Originally Posted by Itse

I do however think that people should make a much bigger effort to be accurate in their criticism. So much of what people write and say mixes up Islam and Islamism and fundamentalism and Jihadist terrorism to a point where it only creates more anger and frustration.

So much this. There is nothing less effective than an attack against a caricature. Not only will people ignore you on that particular point, they will assume the rest of your argument is equally baseless.

[sworkhard]

Originally Posted by Crumpy-Gunt

Good post. I agree that any non-academic christian or any non academic period usually sounds like they are regurgitating something they read online rather than something they know and understand about Islam.

To correct you..the female genital mutilation is an African culture/tradition you wont find it in one Arab Muslim country but you will find it in "In Africa, FGM is known to be practiced among certain communities in 29 countries: Benin, Burkina Faso, Cameroon, Central African Republic, Chad, Cote d'Ivoire, Democratic Republic of Congo, Djibouti, Egypt, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Gambia, Ghana, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Kenya, Liberia, Mali, Mauritania, Niger, Nigeria" according to the UNFPA. I'm not sure if you know but the thing these nations have in common is not that they are Muslim, in fact the majority of these countries are now Christian. Perhaps female genital mutilation is a Christian thing then?

Its little myths like this, that all the Muslim girls have their clits snipped that make people very turned off to many people who want to criticize Islam. The thing is most of these people have had about as much exposure to Islam as someone in Pyongyang, North Korea. So they are literally spreading stories and statistics they read as if they personally have a degree in Islamic studies and conduct censuses in the ME.

Actually, your both right.

It is an African problem, but it's also a Muslim problem. Outside of Africa, the only places it's at all popular are Muslim majority countries. Even in Africa where it's common, it's much more common in Muslim communities than non-Muslim communities, and the more Muslim the nation, the more common it generally is. It may not be a thing with the doctrine itself, but Islamic culture seems to contribute for sure.

And you will definitely find it in Arab Muslim countries

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preval...ion_by_country

[Crumpy-Gunt]

Originally Posted by sworkhard

I think these people are less open for a variety of reasons including the ones you mention, but I think it's primarily a matter of focus and conflation between race and religion. In many ways the current fear of Islam manifests itself in ways that look like racism. People are scared of Muslims, and therefore discriminate against them. By and large, you can't tell a Muslim from a non-Muslim just by looking at them, so it's those that wear head scarves, turbans, particularly large and full beards, or have brown or olive skin that are targeted for harassment and abuse, even if they aren't Muslims. As a result, criticism of Islam has, in the minds of some, become a form of racism, and since it's racism, they think it needs to be called out, which often ends up derailing the conversation or ending it.

Is it more important to criticize Muslims on our comfy western soap boxes or to ensure we arent fueling a mass stereotyping of muslims as people who rape their daughters and cut their genitals off and who are only interested in beheading others. Some low IQ bible thumping FOX watchers are convinced of that. Do you think the medias depiction of Muslims has anything to do with that?

Sure we should criticize the bad in peoples societies and beliefs including our own gluttonous, vain, self absorbed misogynistic, racist, neo-colonialist pig of a culture/society. But shouldn't we also be careful not to characterize or paint 2 billion people as bearded stone age savages. I mean those with a lower IQ might actually look at that and think - wait a minute these people are all thinking like this, we should stop them coming into our countries and prepare for all out battle with them before they all come and invade our lands. I remember I heard of a county or state that actually passed an anti-sharia law; that's the level of fear we currently are witnessing.

I dont think an endless, reckless onslaught of criticism from the west is what it will take to change Islam and global politics.

People seem to want to whine more about the fact they cant bite into Islam and expose it because liberals wont allow them than they actually seem to want to help Muslims reform their religion and have peace in that region of the world.

I feel like many people believe the solution or how we should 'deal with Islam' is by treating them how Dawkins treats Christians and lambasting them for their vintage beliefs. That doesnt work.

[Crumpy-Gunt]

Originally Posted by sworkhard

Actually, your both right.

It is an African problem, but it's also a Muslim problem. Outside of Africa, the only places it's at all popular are Muslim majority countries. Even in Africa where it's common, it's much more common in Muslim communities than non-Muslim communities, and the more Muslim the nation, the more common it generally is. It may not be a thing with the doctrine itself, but Islamic culture seems to contribute for sure.

And you will definitely find it in Arab Muslim countries

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preval...ion_by_country

I think its a cultural thing. You cant say its Muslim if its most prevalent in non-Muslim African countries. You can say it is present in Muslim countries, sure - but there is actually no religious foundation within Islam for female genital mutilation. Just as there is no foundation for it in Christianity but we find it in a host of Christian nations in Africa. Awful pagan Afro-Asiatic culture - yes. Motivated by Islam - no.

That is just one of a host of misconceptions that isnt 'bridging the gap'

[Crumpy-Gunt]

OK so we want to be able to criticize islam without being stopped by the regressive left. Clearly criticizing muslims on the typical things people have been saying for decades now from Calgary isnt ever going to change things for the better in the middle east.

Solutions for how to deal with Islam and Fundamentalism from 29 pages of this thread:

1. Criticism them more.
2...idunno
3...keep criticizing them.

What else can we do?

Criticize the regressive left for stopping us from criticizing the most criticized group of people on this earth.

?

I dont mean to mock anyone here but I'm getting the jist nobody actually wants to deal with islam and help muslims clean up their religion. I havent really seen any positive suggestions. We seem to be stuck on why cant I make fun of their religion as much as people make fun of Christianity and why isnt it as socially accepted in a post 9/11 world where the stereotyping of Muslims and arabs has reached a feverpitch.

People just want to be able to make fun of them more without the left intervening. That fills me with hope.

[sworkhard]

Originally Posted by Crumpy-Gunt

I think its a cultural thing. You cant say its Muslim if its most prevalent in non-Muslim African countries. You can say it is present in Muslim countries, sure - but there is actually no religious foundation within Islam for female genital mutilation. Just as there is no foundation for it in Christianity but we find it in a host of Christian nations in Africa. Awful pagan Afro-Asiatic culture - yes. Motivated by Islam - no.

That is just one of a host of misconceptions that isnt 'bridging the gap'

Rates within Ethiopia for reference:
The prevalence also varies with religion in Ethiopia; FGM is prevalent in 92% of Muslim women, 72% of Protestants, 67% of Catholics and 67% of Traditional Religions.[50] FGM has been made illegal by the 2004 Penal Code.[82]

You'll notice that traditional religions and Catholics are the two lowest numbers. Still really high, but somewhat lower than Protestants, and much lower than Muslims.

This, for example, is what I mean when I say that i think it's influenced by Islamic Culture, not just Pagan ones. It likely originated as a pagan thing, no doubt, and I agree it's not commanded by Islam, but it seems there's something about Islam that makes the procedure more attractive to Muslims than it is to other groups. It's not that other's don't do it, it's just they do it less.

[sworkhard]

Originally Posted by Crumpy-Gunt

OK so we want to be able to criticize islam without being stopped by the regressive left. Clearly criticizing muslims on the typical things people have been saying for decades now from Calgary isnt ever going to change things for the better in the middle east.

Solutions for how to deal with Islam and Fundamentalism from 29 pages of this thread:

1. Criticism them more.
2...idunno
3...keep criticizing them.

What else can we do?

Criticize the regressive left for stopping us from criticizing the most criticized group of people on this earth.

?

I dont mean to mock anyone here but I'm getting the jist nobody actually wants to deal with islam and help muslims clean up their religion. People just want to be able to make fun of them more without the left intervening. That fills me with hope.

The problem is that none of us can deal with Islam and help Muslims clean up their religion except by helping people like Majad Nawas get the most exposure he can and by trying to maintain a healthy dialog with the Muslims we know so that they can integrate better in western society.

Other than that, criticism is all we can provide, both of Islam itself, and of our government's policies and actions in regards to how it deals with Middle Eastern countries.

[Crumpy-Gunt]

I dont know the demographics or percentages of FGM and I would doubt the accuracy of any clit censuses or studies in the 3rd world personally. My point was it isnt a Muslim thing and it isnt its an ancient pagan tradition which some studies show may be more prevalent in muslim societies but thrives in Christian nations. I responded to Itse saying something like 'we need to let these poeople know its not OK to cut their daughters genitals' implying these people - implying it is a Muslim religious thing.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by sworkhard

I think these people are less open for a variety of reasons including the ones you mention, but I think it's primarily a matter of focus and conflation between race and religion. In many ways the current fear of Islam manifests itself in ways that look like racism. People are scared of Muslims, and therefore discriminate against them. By and large, you can't tell a Muslim from a non-Muslim just by looking at them, so it's those that wear head scarves, turbans, particularly large and full beards, or have brown or olive skin that are targeted for harassment and abuse, even if they aren't Muslims. As a result, criticism of Islam has, in the minds of some, become a form of racism, and since it's racism, they think it needs to be called out, which often ends up derailing the conversation or ending it.

To add to the problem, especially in Europe right now far right and racist sentiments are on a rise to the point where we people are seriously starting to fear right wing takeovers. It's a slightly paranoid fear in many cases, but not completely. Democracy essentially already ended in Hungary for example.

There's also the issue of scare campaigns directed towards the liberals. In Finland for example if you're an even slightly visible female liberal you are almost 100% quaranteed to get death threats and rape threats against you and your family. Literally every single female left winger I can think of has gotten them in some for or another. Just think what that does to the atmosphere of discussion.

I have a friend who is married to a Middle-Eastern man, but avoids being seen with him because of the amount of racist vitriol it brings upon them both. This is in Helsinki.

The problem of constant death threats and rape threats towards liberals and especially women is in my opinion one of the biggest failings of "free speech" in the west right in the last few years. It's one of the reasons why I'm extremely hesitant to criticize those people too harshly for their possible overreactions to things. "Checking my privilege" just doesn't even begin to cover the gap between us.

(I'm actually quite surprised that I've never received a death threat. One person I ran into personally did suggest that my kid should get raped so I'd understand the threat of immigration better. Closest I've come to literally digging the eyes out of someones skull. I'm not kidding, I scared him and his friends pretty good and I'm glad I did. Just some lines you don't even ####ing touch.)

[Crumpy-Gunt]

So support people like Nawaz, critique our government and continue to speak out about the injustices in muslim societies whilst helping western Muslims integrate.

That should solve the petro dollar! (sarcasm)

I appreciate the discussion and you indulging me. You make some good points and I mostly agree with you..I just think we arent doing enough as a people because we arent concerned with these peoples lives, well being, freedom, etc as much as we are concerned with their culture or religion and other things we like to nitpick and be astonished by as a pompous, higher more civilized people(at least since we killed the last Indian and hung the last slave). Western criticism of not just Islam but even China, Russia etc comes from this moral high ground that we're deluded if we think we deserve to point our dirty guilty genocide stained fingers at people across the world for eating dogs.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Crumpy-Gunt

the female genital mutilation is an African culture/tradition

In Finland we happen to have a bunch of relatively recently immigrated African Muslims from Somalia. Just one of those random things with immigration in Europe, some groups sometimes just start coming to certain countries for no real reason.

Anyway, it was a talking point here at one point so that's why it popped into my head.

[Crumpy-Gunt]

Originally Posted by Itse

To add to the problem, especially in Europe right now far right and racist sentiments are on a rise to the point where we people are seriously starting to fear right wing takeovers. It's a slightly paranoid fear in many cases, but not completely. Democracy essentially already ended in Hungary for example.

There's also the issue of scare campaigns directed towards the liberals. In Finland for example if you're an even slightly visible female liberal you are almost 100% quaranteed to get death threats and rape threats against you and your family. Literally every single female left winger I can think of has gotten them in some for or another. Just think what that does to the atmosphere of discussion.

I have a friend who is married to a Middle-Eastern man, but avoids being seen with him because of the amount of racist vitriol it brings upon them both. This is in Helsinki.

The problem of constant death threats and rape threats towards liberals and especially women is in my opinion one of the biggest failings of "free speech" in the west right in the last few years. It's one of the reasons why I'm extremely hesitant to criticize those people too harshly for their possible overreactions to things. "Checking my privilege" just doesn't even begin to cover the gap between us.

(I'm actually quite surprised that I've never received a death threat. One person I ran into personally did suggest that my kid should get raped so I'd understand the threat of immigration better. Closest I've come to literally digging the eyes out of someones skull. I'm not kidding, I scared him and his friends pretty good and I'm glad I did. Just some lines you don't even ####ing touch.)

So you are more afraid of harshly criticizing the local Helsinki right wingers than you are of speaking out against Islamists. That is scary (for freedom of speech in europe). So much for Muslims stifling freedom of speech.

Also fair enough - I dont think you are the type of person who would knowingly propogate lies against any religion so I figured you were just misinformed or had only a passing understanding of the mythical link between Islam and FGM.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Crumpy-Gunt

So you are more afraid of harshly criticizing the local Helsinki right wingers than you are of speaking out against Islamists. That is scary (for freedom of speech in europe).

"Them" meant liberals in that sentence.

I'm hesitant to criticize the reactions of liberal women who I know have to deal with that ####.

[sworkhard]

Originally Posted by Crumpy-Gunt

So support people like Nawaz, critique our government and continue to speak out about the injustices in muslim societies whilst helping western Muslims integrate.

That should solve the petro dollar! (sarcasm)

I appreciate the discussion and you indulging me. You make some good points and I mostly agree with you..I just think we arent doing enough as a people because we arent concerned with these peoples lives, well being, freedom, etc as much as we are concerned with their culture or religion and other things we like to nitpick and be astonished by as a pompous, higher more civilized people(at least since we killed the last Indian and hung the last slave). Western criticism of not just Islam but even China, Russia etc comes from this moral high ground that we're deluded if we think we deserve to point our dirty guilty genocide stained fingers at people across the world for eating dogs.

Any other suggestions?

Your right, I'm not as concerned with their well being as I don't know these people. However, I am concerned with their culture as that's going to have a big effect on how well the ones that move to Canada or other western countries in general are going to be able to integrate. Integration is important if we wish to maintain the kinds of freedoms people in our countries have enjoyed the last 50-100 years.

Ultimately, if you don't think you have at least a moral high ground (allowing for moral pluralism), you are either a moral relativist (which might as well not be morality), or consider yourself immoral. That this moral high ground currently reveals both the immoral actions of our own countries as well as those of others, isn't a reason to stop a well grounded critique of one of them. Rather, it is a reason to convince people, to the extent of our abilities, to work together to prevent them from happening again and to provide the support and platform necessary for people with the ability to do so to help change the countries that in our view are currently suffering from moral failings.

I really don't care if people in China eat dogs. It will be a culture shock should they move here, but there's nothing about this that is incompatible with my liberal principles. But I think it's completely fair to think that the levels of corruption in Canada are better than in China and Russia for example.

[sworkhard]

Originally Posted by Itse

To add to the problem, especially in Europe right now far right and racist sentiments are on a rise to the point where we people are seriously starting to fear right wing takeovers. It's a slightly paranoid fear in many cases, but not completely. Democracy essentially already ended in Hungary for example.

There's also the issue of scare campaigns directed towards the liberals. In Finland for example if you're an even slightly visible female liberal you are almost 100% quaranteed to get death threats and rape threats against you and your family. Literally every single female left winger I can think of has gotten them in some for or another. Just think what that does to the atmosphere of discussion.

I have a friend who is married to a Middle-Eastern man, but avoids being seen with him because of the amount of racist vitriol it brings upon them both. This is in Helsinki.

The problem of constant death threats and rape threats towards liberals and especially women is in my opinion one of the biggest failings of "free speech" in the west right in the last few years. It's one of the reasons why I'm extremely hesitant to criticize those people too harshly for their possible overreactions to things. "Checking my privilege" just doesn't even begin to cover the gap between us.

(I'm actually quite surprised that I've never received a death threat. One person I ran into personally did suggest that my kid should get raped so I'd understand the threat of immigration better. Closest I've come to literally digging the eyes out of someones skull. I'm not kidding, I scared him and his friends pretty good and I'm glad I did. Just some lines you don't even ####ing touch.)

I fully expect that there's going to be a far right government in some countries in Europe within the next decade. I don't think it's paranoid in the least. I'm not sure what effect it will have on democracy, but it's not likely to make it more vibrant.

Nobody should have to experience that kind of harassment, but there's not a lot anyone can do about that. All trying to aggresively ban that would do is further fuel the far right.

That being said, when the right rises up, it's almost always a reactionary movement, usually to issues that were ignored for too long, like the failure to integrate Muslim populations withing the larger population in Europe.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by sworkhard

Nobody should have to experience that kind of harassment, but there's not a lot anyone can do about that.

I don't agree at all. This should just not be considered in any way acceptable behavior, and I believe it would make a huge difference if people would simply be much more vocal about it. (We're moving in that direction, but not fast enough in my opinion.)

There is also a ridiculous amount of minimizing around the problem. It's one of the situations where you really notice how incredibly sexist some discussions really are. I hate the word mansplaining, but in these situations it's often just the only word that applies. Apologism is another word that totally applies.

Plus it's worth remembering that death threats are very much illegal in most countries, and I happen to think it's a law that should be rigorously upheld. It's quite central in protecting free speech.

[Crumpy-Gunt]

Originally Posted by sworkhard

Any other suggestions?

Your right, I'm not as concerned with their well being as I don't know these people. However, I am concerned with their culture as that's going to have a big effect on how well the ones that move to Canada or other western countries in general are going to be able to integrate. Integration is important if we wish to maintain the kinds of freedoms people in our countries have enjoyed the last 50-100 years.

I would share some suggestions but they dont really apply if ones viewpoint of the 'problem of Islam' only really matters to them when it affects their life in the western world through global terrorist attacks and people from different cultures providing some shock when they move to the west.

To me thats kind of like continually filling a cup with holes and wondering why it wont hold water or mopping up a leak before you've cut the source and stopped the leak.

Part of the reason many people dont want to have this discussion is because it takes place by and large between middle aged white people in the west who are more interested in their own politics than helping opressed people reform their religion and societies. The scope is always a western one and not a global or humanist agenda to have people living in equality around the world. We dont care if its a rabbid dog in the desert as long as it never bites us.

As long as we deal with Islam from the west and look to solve only the problems Islam poses for the west we will never really 'deal with Islam' or liberate people in these countries so they can choose to be more secular; we will only deal with the individual issues that we find troubling about Islam. Not the ones that actually trouble Muslims.

Its a pretty selfish way to look at it. I'm not concerned with helping these people, I'm concerned with ensuring they dont hurt me or challenge my way of life. Basically I'm only concerned with the well being of people I know or can relate with culturally, religiously etc.

[Itse]

Crumpy, I think it's also a fair view that it's best we try to take care of our own end and hope everyone else does the same, and that eventually it will move things to a better direction. A lot times the western attempts to make things better in other places end up making them worse. (Mostly because they are dishonest attempts, but it's not the only reason.) It's just difficult stuff.

Personally I'm more prone to your line of thinking, but I don't think everyone needs to think like an activist for things to get better. It's enough that there's some kind of a general understanding of what the problems are and where we should be going. Then you just keep moving the needle to that direction.

Secularism largely spreads through contact and example anyway, so one thing we can do is try to set our standards high and live up to them. That stuff does matter IMO.

[TheScorpion]

Itse continues to be one of the best posters on this site. So thoughtful and articulate.

[sworkhard]

Originally Posted by Crumpy-Gunt

I would share some suggestions but they dont really apply if ones viewpoint of the 'problem of Islam' only really matters to them when it affects their life in the western world through global terrorist attacks and people from different cultures providing some shock when they move to the west.

To me thats kind of like continually filling a cup with holes and wondering why it wont hold water or mopping up a leak before you've cut the source and stopped the leak.

Part of the reason many people dont want to have this discussion is because it takes place by and large between middle aged white people in the west who are more interested in their own politics than helping opressed people reform their religion and societies. The scope is always a western one and not a global or humanist agenda to have people living in equality around the world. We dont care if its a rabbid dog in the desert as long as it never bites us.

As long as we deal with Islam from the west and look to solve only the problems Islam poses for the west we will never really 'deal with Islam' or liberate people in these countries so they can choose to be more secular; we will only deal with the individual issues that we find troubling about Islam. Not the ones that actually trouble Muslims.

Its a pretty selfish way to look at it. I'm not concerned with helping these people, I'm concerned with ensuring they dont hurt me or challenge my way of life. Basically I'm only concerned with the well being of people I know or can relate with culturally, religiously etc.

If you think you value the people you don't know as much as the ones you do, you are either fooling yourself or wasting a lot of energy not making a difference.

I've yet to meet a person who truly acts selflessly. I've seen people give up a lot, and heard of those who gave up all, for the satisfaction that comes with helping people they don't know, but I've never met one who was doing those things with the expectation that doing such a things was going to make them unhappy and disappointed with themselves. So yes, it is partially selfish, but I really do thing that if our goal is to provide the best life to the most people, we should start by ensuring the areas that currently provide this best life continue to do so. And doing this, like it or not, requires border controls so that countries can let in people they think will fit, and exclude those that they think will damage the culture that contributes to it, or even just limit the rate so those that come in will integrate with the rest of the population so that people don't feel threatened and turn to right wing neo fascist groups to get rid of the threat.

But my answer wasn't, I'm not concerned with helping these people, it's I'm not as concerned with helping these people. There are multiple reasons for that, but one of them is that I actually have the ability to try change my own back yard for the better. Another is that I think there will always be parts of the world that become hell holes for periods of time. During these times, the best we can do is try make sure the part of the part of the world we live in doesn't. Additionally, by focusing on our back yard and maintaining our liberal values, we can continue to try to innovate and provide technological solutions to reduce some of the non-religious pressures that contribute to fighting in the middle east. For, example, we can fund research into more efficient and cheaper to build sea water purification techniques that could help reduce the water shortages in the area.

The people I contribute to helping the most are those that nothing but nets help the most. They happen to be my international charity of choice and help people in Africa reduce the rates of malaria and other diseases; things which they have no control over in an area where they don't have the benefit of massive amounts of oil money. Reduce the disease that plagues the area, improve the education, and this contribution just might, in the long run, make a material impact in reducing the rates of FGM in Africa.

I'm not an activist type as my mindset is way too skeptical. I've seen activists of all stripes get caught up in the ends justify the means type of a mindset and end up setting their movement and goals back more often than I've seen them actually make an overall positive difference. The people who make the biggest difference are those that have spent the time necessary to build business connections and large networks of friends, and as part of routine business they subtly change minds in ways that make the world a better place.

Edit:

As for the goal of having people around the world living in equality, I think it's a fool's errand. I would rather 80% of the world live in free, liberal cultures and 20% live under oppression and dictatorships than have 100% of the world living equally miserable lives. I'd even rather 20% of the world live in free, liberal cultures and 80% live in various amounts of oppression than have 100% of the world living equal, but somewhat oppressed, miserable lives with little to improvement to forward to. There's nothing about equality that is good in and of itself. Fairness is the moral good worth striving for, but fairness is much more complicated to determine than equality. Sometimes fairness dictates equality, but sometimes it indicates anything but.