The failure of Liberalism (Regressive left) to deal with Islam

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by nik-

haha well yeah, I mean there's no real grey area in that. The guy is an idiot.

He certainly showed his hand. I didn't need to see his last post to see what was up.

[Crumpy-Gunt]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Just leave already.

Zionism is a movement that advocates the RE-establishment of Israel, a cause that came about due to rampant HATE/murder against Jews in many countries. It is not inherently evil, and is certainly used by MANY as a slur. More so on the 'left' than the 'right'. So step aside, you showed your hand.

Israel exists, and is a beacon of freedom across the entire middle east. There are certainly topics to debate, but that is not your goal.

How about we discuss freedoms in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria or pretty much any other nation on the planet? EXACTLY what this thread is focused on.

RE-establishment of Israel? A mythical (biblical) kingdom all archaeologists have found no historical proof for in a historically pagan land hostile to monotheism. You are absolutely mad and I love it.

You think the only real hate problem in the world is the fact that a high percentage of people in Arab countries hate Israel. Lets see statistics on how Israelis or extremely right wing Christians feel about Islam or Arabs and compare the two. The ADL is literally set up by Jews to monitor anti-semitism in a post WW2 world and condemn it wherever it is found. You dont see the ADL stepping up for Native Americans or anyone else. Yet you feel like its Jews who are completely hated everywhere on the planet.

Why dont you go into why many people wrongfully hate all Jews? Could it be because of political Judaism or Zionism? Just like how many people wrongfully hate all Muslims because of political Islam.

Could it be their (Zionists) lobbying power, threatening of western leaders and orchestrating chaos? Could it be because people see the the Israeli-western alliance as the biggest threat to world peace.

You cant sit there claiming everyone hates Jews and that Zionism is a movement that simply 'advocates' for the 're-establishment' of an ancient religious kingdom which exists only in the bible myths. Furthermore the Jewish people in Israel are religious Jews only. They are ethnically not even Semites they are european Ashkenazi peoples who fled places like Poland because they didnt feel safe. Sephardic Jews who left Iberia because they were mistreated. You are a grown man wake the **** up.

We should never have boated in millions of European followers of the Jewish faith into the middle of hundreds of millions of Arab followers of Islam because of the wrong doing of German Catholics. It was a terrible idea but now that Israel has been established there it will behave like a god-sent tribe of shepherds whom the universe has granted everything when they are simply a group of Europeans who converted to Judaism and they are not the Israel or the Jews of the bible.

Its like Chinese people converting to Islam in 2000 years and after being persecuted in Asia by the Japanese, staking a claim to the 'Islamic Kingdom' of Arabia as the descendants of Muhammad. On top of that taking more land than the UN permitted them, terrorizing and murdering the aboriginal people of the land and basically making tons of illegal settlements and building a wall.. Its absolute nonsense and nobody would allow that. But we have become numb to the mind blowing stupidity of Zionist extremists who call everyone and everything anti-Semitic but fail to see ANY problems with Israel since its establishment. Basically forcing us to turn a blind eye to a terrorist apartheid state committing crimes against humanity and calling us anti-Semites if we dare say anything.

Maybe we should also make a thread titled the failure of the west to deal with Jews. That would probably make Waza dial 911. Any mention of 'dealing with Jews' would never be tolerated.

Let me guess Waza...Norman FINKELSTEIN is an anti-Semite as well? He is as Jewish as they come and his family perished in the holocaust.

[Crumpy-Gunt]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

I was 100% correct. This same scenario repeats itself over and over.

Nik, Cecil, Itse, etc.please at least support me on this.

LOL Zionism isnt a religion or ethnicity. It is a political movement. Its just like saying filthy regressive leftists or filthy black lives matter.

You are a filthy Zionist, own it.

[jayswin]

Wowzers! This is great summer stuff.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Wowzers! This is great summer stuff.

There are a lot of angry people posting all over the forum for a lazy Sunday afternoon!

Usually this kinda anger is reserved for flames losses and elections!

[jayswin]

lol, I feel like getting mad at someone and posting angry things just to fit in today.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Nik, Cecil, Itse, etc.please at least support me on this.

Well, if you're asking my opinion, it's this.

You're at this moment both below the line where I could support either. Even if one side is being more idiotic than the other.

You're also acting stupid in the same way. Which is not surprising. People usually fight the most with people who are like them.

Mirrors are nasty things.

[Crumpy-Gunt]

Well put. Im not a troll anymore. I'm a mirror that reflects the ignorant immature bigots on here.

I'm curious if all these Scottish Catholic Celtic fans are also anti-Semitic because they held up Palestinian flags at a soccer match in Israel.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=celti...ErAlAQ_AUIBigB

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

He certainly showed his hand. I didn't need to see his last post to see what was up.

You called him an anti- Semite and he called you a Zionist. Don't you see the irony? Jesus, just once put away your victim card.

[nik-]

I am reminded of this

[Nage Waza]

This is will be fun:

Originally Posted by Crumpy-Gunt

RE-establishment of Israel? A mythical (biblical) kingdom all archaeologists have found no historical proof for in a historically pagan land hostile to monotheism. You are absolutely mad and I love it.

I am an atheist. Israel has a very rich history of archaeology . To claim otherwise is a lie. Hit up Stormfront if you want to research other people who will stand by you.

Originally Posted by Crumpy-Gunt

You think the only real hate problem in the world is the fact that a high percentage of people in Arab countries hate Israel. Lets see statistics on how Israelis or extremely right wing Christians feel about Islam or Arabs and compare the two. The ADL is literally set up by Jews to monitor anti-semitism in a post WW2 world and condemn it wherever it is found. You dont see the ADL stepping up for Native Americans or anyone else. Yet you feel like its Jews who are completely hated everywhere on the planet.

Hmmm, I already posted statistics indicating greater than 80% disdain for Jews in assorted countries (in this thread!!!). Jews have been civic leaders in assorted cities across North America supporting people of all backgrounds, including First Nations. To say otherwise is, once again, nonsense and hateful.

Originally Posted by Crumpy-Gunt

Why dont you go into why many people wrongfully hate all Jews? Could it be because of political Judaism or Zionism? Just like how many people wrongfully hate all Muslims because of political Islam.

I believe the point is that many governments have directed their abused civilians to direct their hate towards Jews, rather than the wealthy elite. It certainly seems that countries that are on the decline have high levels of anti-Semitism. Coincidence? Once again, your hate is obvious.

Originally Posted by Crumpy-Gunt

Could it be their (Zionists) lobbying power, threatening of western leaders and orchestrating chaos? Could it be because people see the the Israeli-western alliance as the biggest threat to world peace.

LOL, this is straight from Stormfront. Nice. You know who else lobbies? The dairy industry, beer companies, pet stores, pretty much everything. Singling out Jews has a name for it.

Originally Posted by Crumpy-Gunt

You cant sit there claiming everyone hates Jews and that Zionism is a movement that simply 'advocates' for the 're-establishment' of an ancient religious kingdom which exists only in the bible myths. Furthermore the Jewish people in Israel are religious Jews only. They are ethnically not even Semites they are european Ashkenazi peoples who fled places like Poland because they didnt feel safe. Sephardic Jews who left Iberia because they were mistreated. You are a grown man wake the **** up.

Once again your desire to spread hate is evident. I also never said everyone hates Jews. In fact, I posted exactly how many people hate jews based on a legit study.

Originally Posted by Crumpy-Gunt

We should never have boated in millions of European followers of the Jewish faith into the middle of hundreds of millions of Arab followers of Islam because of the wrong doing of German Catholics. It was a terrible idea but now that Israel has been established there it will behave like a god-sent tribe of shepherds whom the universe has granted everything when they are simply a group of Europeans who converted to Judaism and they are not the Israel or the Jews of the bible.

'We' didn't do anything. The past took place and the Jews arrived and were attacked. The region chose war instead of peace (over and over). Everything else you said is Nazi propaganda.

Originally Posted by Crumpy-Gunt

Its like Chinese people converting to Islam in 2000 years and after being persecuted in Asia by the Japanese, staking a claim to the 'Islamic Kingdom' of Arabia as the descendants of Muhammad. On top of that taking more land than the UN permitted them, terrorizing and murdering the aboriginal people of the land and basically making tons of illegal settlements and building a wall.. Its absolute nonsense and nobody would allow that. But we have become numb to the mind blowing stupidity of Zionist extremists who call everyone and everything anti-Semitic but fail to see ANY problems with Israel since its establishment. Basically forcing us to turn a blind eye to a terrorist apartheid state committing crimes against humanity and calling us anti-Semites if we dare say anything.

I lost you there in your paranoid nonsense.

Originally Posted by Crumpy-Gunt

Maybe we should also make a thread titled the failure of the west to deal with Jews. That would probably make Waza dial 911. Any mention of 'dealing with Jews' would never be tolerated.

Let me guess Waza...Norman FINKELSTEIN is an anti-Semite as well? He is as Jewish as they come and his family perished in the holocaust.

Finkelstein has his own demons. A devout supporter of communist Russia, his hatred eventually pointed at Israel. Yes, he is a jew, but he is a supporter of Hezbollah, a terrorist group. Like many anti Israel advocates like you, once he backed a suicidal murder cult, anything he says is nonsense.

I am a Jew, but will deny/argue anything religious. People can have different points of view.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Itse

Well, if you're asking my opinion, it's this.

You're at this moment both below the line where I could support either. Even if one side is being more idiotic than the other.

You're also acting stupid in the same way. Which is not surprising. People usually fight the most with people who are like them.

Mirrors are nasty things.

I have said nothing controversial. You have also shown your hand.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

You called him an anti- Semite and he called you a Zionist. Don't you see the irony? Jesus, just once put away your victim card.

Have you not read the nonsense he has posted? Calling him a racist is actually a compliment.

The fact you don't see it that way is very telling.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

He certainly showed his hand. I didn't need to see his last post to see what was up.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

I have said nothing controversial. You have also shown your hand.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Have you not read the nonsense he has posted? Calling him a racist is actually a compliment.

The fact you don't see it that way is very telling.

Haha, this is awesome. Everyone has shown their hand! This would be the worst poker group ever.

[Crumpy-Gunt]

Hahahaha. This reminds me of when I was a kid and watched WWF and stone cold steve austin came through to a 100 man brawl and knocked everyone out within 1 minute. Instead of stone cold stunners we've been hit with "you've shown your hand, anti-semite, you've also shown your hand, anti-semite!" and BAM BAM BAM just like that, we're all defeated by the wizard that is Mage Naza.

This is awesome. What a good look at the minds of filthy right wing bible thumping Zionists who claim to be athiest but talk about the "RE-establishment" of a Kingdom which only exists in the bible and we have no proof of. You sound athiest...

OK I'm off to RE-establish Atlantis. BRB

[Itse]

For the record and by the way.

I can understand why people like Sam Harris and Maajid Nawaz feel like it's liberals who refuse to have the conversations they'd like to have. Liberals are the people they've tried to have those conversations with the most. I'm sure they're not the only people who have personal bubbles where that discussion over "what can be talked about with liberals" feels super relevant.

However, I feel that if look at the quality of conversation outside the liberal bubble, you will notice the same lack of reasonable public speech on Islam and radical Islamism. Partly for the same reasons, partly for different ones.

Plus as I've said I don't think it's constructive or fair even to start calling out the kinds of people who very likely in other contexts are taking part in related important work, such as fighting for civil rights and against the discrimination of Muslims.


It's also important to remember when you listen to people like Harris and Nawaz that every expert thinks their field is the most relevant one. (It's often why they became experts in that field in the first place.)

EDIT: This often leads them to completely miss the existence of other aspects of a question.

For example, both Nawaz and Harris seem to consider the Guardian some kind of a "prime offender" in not talking about Islam in the way they'd like it to be talked about and thus for them the Guardian is part of the problem. Now, even if we entertain the notion that The Guardian does indeed talk about Islam in a way that's fundamentally wrong, that argument completely ignores the rest of the everyday fight against radical Islamism. Even if the Guardian is indeed wrong on that one thing, they're fighting the good fight on a whole variety of others.
Harris and Nawaz both talk of the Guardian as if all that other stuff simply just doesn't exist. But seriously, which of these things is the most acute issue when it comes to the fight against Islamist terrorism: Problematic passages in the Quran, Turkey buying oil from ISIS, grenade launchers being sold to Islamic militants or the US acting as if it can shoot itself out of this problem?

You can of course discuss all of these topics at once, and yes you can argue that the philosophical debate is also absolutely necessary to have. But it's still extremely unfair and IMO actually rather narcistic for them to make such a big deal about somebody disagreeing with them in their own field. Even if they were right in that one topic. (They should be, they're experts in that field. The Guardian is not. They're just journalists trying to do their job.)


I respect Maajid Nawaz enourmosly as a thinker despite the above because he clearly draws from a wide range of fields (political theory, sociopsychology, history etc) and is able to make connections between all of those things. That's a very difficult thing to do.

Sam Harris on the other hand, while good in his own field, seems to have a rather simplistic view of things outside of his own field of religion and philosophy, and so ultimately I find his commentary on the topic mostly rather trivial, even when it's true and interesting.

After all, the real world does not respect the boundaries of scientific disciplines. (Which is why it's just extremely unlikely that there would be a complex human phenomenon such as Islamic extremism that could be adequately explained with any one theory from any one field of study.)

[Crumpy-Gunt]

Nevermind that is a bad example as there is probably more evidence for a historical Atlantis than there is for a historical Kingdom of Israel and Kings called David and Solomon in a land where those 2 names would be gibberish to the people who were all pagans at the time worshiping Ba'al and El though their altars.

[Crumpy-Gunt]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Have you not read the nonsense he has posted? Calling him a racist is actually a compliment.

The fact you don't see it that way is very telling.

So I was an anti-Semite first and now I'm a racist? Which is it or did Semites become a race recently?

I am also curious if these 2 orthodox jewish gentlemen are also anti-Semitic or racist?





Couple thousand more images like these you will never see on FOX

https://www.google.ca/search?q=jews+...w=1093&bih=534

[sworkhard]

Originally Posted by Itse

That is the opposite of what I meant. (I think if you were less infuriated with Crumpy it would be obvious to you too).

What I meant was that the emotionally charged accusations of bigotry distracted from the good points.

Such as



Which I think is relevant in understanding that many things we balk at when the name of religion is Islam and the country is somewhere in Midde-East is considered perfectly normal when the name of the religion is Christianity and the place is a western country. These gut reactions badly distort the conversations.

It's especially weird since I think many in this discussion seem to be more or less atheistic or agnostic, or at least far to the secular side on their religions. People talk about the things that are going on in the Middle East as if religious nutcases never try to set up their own kingdoms of heaven in the west, as if we didn't have Christians literally preaching death to gay people without repercussions, as if we never have our own versions of honour killings, and as if there are no significant political movements in the west who get some of their most central goals straight from religious writings.

And just in general I agree with his view that people are giving way too much significance on Islam here, and are waayy too eager to dismiss the significance of sociopolitical and historical backgrounds. When really I think absolutely every expert on any even remotely connected field would agree that religion is in all this at best one contributing factor among many.

It seems to me that people have a desire for simple answers, and the sociopolitical and historical reasons are just never going to give those, especially since it would take an enormous amount of learning to even get started.

Thus it's just much easier to talk about things that are close and understandable, even if they're only extremely tangentially related. Such as the infighting of a few western liberals.

Since I'm not interesting in joining the anti-semite vs zionist pissing match, I'll respond to you instead.

I'm currently rather secular, but come from precisely the kind of conservative Christian background your talking about. Unfortunately, the parallels don't really hold, even when generalizing about both religions. That being said, our gut reactions are going to be more accustomed to Christian actions because we living in a culture that is highly influenced by Christianity.

That being said, people who say Islamic Terror is 100% due to Islam are just as ridiculous as those who say it has nothing to do with it.

Yes, there is a sizable chunk of Christians who are Dominionists that want to place western nations under the Dominion of Christ and are very comparable to Islamists.

However, there isn't currently a Christian equivalent to the Jihadists. Historically you might point to the inquisitors, papal armies, Jesuits, some missionary groups, and the Christian imperialism of the 19 century, but those aren't today.

However, even when there are hundreds of influences contributing to a violent spell in an region, religion and culture (they influence each other in ways that are usually inseparable) are the kinds of influences that can make a bigger difference than most as far as affecting an individuals actions in the contest of the other pressures. The point about Korea, India, etc vs many Muslim majority nations is ignored far too often. Sometimes the causes that make the difference really can be narrowed down to a select few things like religion and culture. Of course, such a position would at least need to be coherently argued for.

As far as double standards go, why should I not speak as plainly and strongly about Islam as I do about Christianity. Why should I speak less strongly about Muslims that promote honor killing than I do about Christians who promote stoning gays? I fail to see how whining about people discussing a group they are less informed about will help them become more informed. I fail to see how crying bigot, islamophobia, racist before giving someone else's point of view even a moment's thought helps people better understand the quality of their point of view. It seems to me that these people are every bit as caught up in maintaining simple answers as those who would ban all Muslims because they think it will keep out terrorists.

It's striking how both sides see the other as holding to a double standard.

[sworkhard]

Originally Posted by Itse

For the record and by the way.

I can understand why people like Sam Harris and Maajid Nawaz feel like it's liberals who refuse to have the conversations they'd like to have. Liberals are the people they've tried to have those conversations with the most. I'm sure they're not the only people who have personal bubbles where that discussion over "what can be talked about with liberals" feels super relevant.

However, I feel that if look at the quality of conversation outside the liberal bubble, you will notice the same lack of reasonable public speech on Islam and radical Islamism. Partly for the same reasons, partly for different ones.

Plus as I've said I don't think it's constructive or fair even to start calling out the kinds of people who very likely in other contexts are taking part in related important work, such as fighting for civil rights and against the discrimination of Muslims.


It's also important to remember when you listen to people like Harris and Nawaz that every expert thinks their field is the most relevant one. It's often why they became experts in that field in the first place.


The reason why I respect Maajid Nawaz as a thinker vastly more than Sam Harris is because the former clearly draws from a much wider range of fields (political theory, sociopsychology, history etc), whereas Sam Harris, while good in his own field, seems to have a rather simplistic view of things outside of his own field of religion and philosophy.

After all, the real world does not respect the boundaries of scientific disciplines. (Which is why it's just extremely unlikely that there would be a complex human phenomenon such as Islamic extremism that could be adequately explained with any one theory from any one field of study.)

I'm not sure your right that they think they can't talk to liberals in general. They both consider themselves liberals and they can talk to each other. Rather there's a subset of liberals they can't have a conversation with; this is the part they call the regressive left. The subset that is more interested in calling names and judging their opponents by the group they are a member of than by what they say. The subset that is generally more interested in the feelings of the small minority of Muslims that live in the west than the actions of the majority outside the west. The subset that seems incapable of holding two thoughts at the same time, namely that you can treat your peaceful, hardworking, Muslim neighbors with the respect they deserve and condemn the atrocities committed in the name of Islam elsewhere. The subset that engages in the oppression Olympics in determining the validity of an opinion or fact. It is this subset, and only this subset for which they have coined the term "Regressive Left".

And I disagree that doing good in one area is not a reason to challenge a person in another. There's nothing incoherent in both fighting against discrimination against Muslims and acknowledging that human rights are being curtailed in the name of Islam.