You just posted an article that's written by a liberal. (It says so in the article.)
The article is written by a person who famously makes a clear distinction between Islam and Islamism, and even explains the difference in that article.
How often do I have to make the distinction that regressives refers to a segment of liberals, not all liberals. Yes I know quite a bit about Maajid.
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The article also explains how Muslims are not monolithic, and should not be approached as such. (It actually quite a major point of the whole argument between Nawaz and the Guardian.)
Agreed, its like when I speak out against things Christians, Jews, or any religion does, its an idea that you attack not all the people.
failure. However, we're really talking about relatively minor stuff.
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Most specifically, I kind of fail to see how Maajid Nawaz is "silenced as inconvenient", considering he is one of the most quoted and most famous commentators of Muslim issues in the world.
Silenced is a bad word, disliked by many of his fellow Muslims, and many of his fellow Liberals, loved by Conservatives. He created the term the Regressive left because how much backlash his direct and honest response to problems within Islam in the west and wanting to face it and try to have real dialogue. That should be championed by fellow liberals, but many of us have become afraid to speak about Islam critically for fear of sounding like the right wing who attack Islam on much harsher grounds.
Lets be clear here, its the reformers within Islam, those being hunted down for posting blogs in the Muslim world, which are calling out for modernization within Islam that are most dissapointed at the west for allowing only the more extreme right be the main voice against these issues within Islam, while the left has failed to stand up and call out these issues for cultural sensitivity, fear of being called bigots, and a whole host of other nonsense.
Do you truly believe in your heart of hearts that WESTERN BLOODY CIVILIZATION and all her armies and resources are in any way threatened by a group of bearded extremists in their tens of thousands.
A threat? Not remotely. And I never said so. I said that there's at least a reasonable argument (which could just as reasonably be disagreed with) that a fight is inevitable. That argument might go something like this: if there's a political movement based on the notion that the Lord God has put the mujaheddin on this Earth to conquer it and establish a global caliphate, that political movement is not going to stop or compromise until someone destroys it. God wants X, God gets X, as far as they're concerned.
So now you've essentially followed up your last spiel - which by the way legitimately "hurt my feelings" as well, because when I say that's depressing to read I legitimately mean it - by attributing a position to me that I don't hold and never expressed and that would embarrass me if I did hold it. Do you see the problem here? You go on to do it again and again in your post. This is pure intellectual dishonesty on your part. You should stop behaving this way when talking to people about what they think about important issues. Conversation cannot take place when one of the participants does things like this.
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What will the scope/nature of this clash be? Canada vs political Islam? Europe vs political Islam? Western civilization vs political Islam?
To humour you for a moment, and to re-formulate this "clash" thing, I think the resistance will likely be only partly military in nature (because someone has to end ISIS eventually), and mostly ideological, and will be reformist Muslims vs. political Islam, with the former being supported by the West in any way possible that doesn't become counterproductive. That's the fairy tale version, anyway.
__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
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Itse was right. Some seriously right wing Breivik type talk in here about clashes of civilizations. You guys probably played too many games like Ages of Empires or Risk.
Back to youtube for you lads to watch more Jewish Rothschild conspiracy videos. Or maybe you European brothers listen to Red Ice Creations radio as well?
Let me guess you are all tuning in to the UFC fight tomorrow and cheering your lungs out for McGregor even though you dont really like or follow MMA?
The funny part is these fellows are all bemused as to why nobody ever indulges their fears of some grand Islamic caliphate or sharia law in the west, or ever wants to have a debate with these 'brave' Euro Alpha males. Because you are a group of paranoid bigots who identify more with your ethnicity, religion or nationality than your species. Cretins.
Wait, how can I be Icelandic when my avatar is the Norwegian flag?
I realized its an Icelandic one. Almost all scandanavian flags are crosses so it gets confusing. Sorry I should have realized...I cheered ISL on for the whole Euros and then called their flag Norwegian. D'oh.
Create (along with the mirror image of this behaviour) potentially irreparable political polarization that is at present doing its level best to slowly erode the foundations our society rests on.
Sorry, western civilization is under so many threats that I have a hard time keeping track of all of them.
More seriously, I get that you really dislike the way Crumpy-Grunt puts it, and I generally sort of agree with you on that. On the other hand, you can be terrible for discussion too and quite polarizing. I can sometimes be totally terrible. It's not such a big deal. And your reactions are to Crumpy-Gunt are certainly not helping.
I really don't think our society is going to be brought down by a bunch of self-righteous liberals and/or conservatives. Except in the sense that we keep bickering about trivial stuff like Islamist terrorism while there are much, much more worrying news going essentially ignored. (Like the seven
warmest months in history that we've had this year... so far.)
^You should really go back to post 89 and watch the talk Peter12 posted if you're not worried about where increased polarization and the way we interact in that context is taking our societies. It's a legitimate thing to be worried about, even if you think my description was a tad on the hyperbolic side.
EDIT: I'd go so far as to say that it's almost a threshold problem; we can't possibly address problems like the obviously crucial one you pointed to if we can't have honest and fulsome conversations about them. And we can't, practically speaking, have those conversations about one such problem if we can't have those conversations about every important issue.
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Originally Posted by Crumpy-Gunt
The funny part is these fellows are all bemused as to why nobody ever indulges their fears of some grand Islamic caliphate or sharia law in the west, or ever wants to have a debate with these 'brave' Euro Alpha males. Because you are a group of paranoid bigots who identify more with your ethnicity, religion or nationality than your species. Cretins.
And when challenged, he doubles down. It's like a case study.
__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
Last edited by CorsiHockeyLeague; 08-20-2016 at 12:36 AM.
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Sorry, western civilization is under so many threats that I have a hard time keeping track of all of them.
More seriously, I get that you really dislike the way Crumpy-Grunt puts it, and I generally sort of agree with you on that. On the other hand, you can be terrible for discussion too and quite polarizing. I can sometimes be totally terrible. It's not such a big deal. And your reactions are to Crumpy-Gunt are certainly not helping.
I really don't think our society is going to be brought down by a bunch of self-righteous liberals and/or conservatives. Except in the sense that we keep bickering about trivial stuff like Islamist terrorism while there are much, much more worrying news going essentially ignored. (Like the seven
warmest months in history that we've had this year... so far.)
We have the capacity to discuss several topics at once. The cows still get milked even though the chickens are laying eggs.
A threat? Not remotely. And I never said so. I said that there's at least a reasonable argument (which could just as reasonably be disagreed with) that a fight is inevitable. That argument might go something like this: if there's a political movement based on the notion that the Lord God has put the mujaheddin on this Earth to conquer it and establish a global caliphate, that political movement is not going to stop or compromise until someone destroys it. God wants X, God gets X, as far as they're concerned.
So now you've essentially followed up your last spiel - which by the way legitimately "hurt my feelings" as well, because when I say that's depressing to read I legitimately mean it - by attributing a position to me that I don't hold and never expressed and that would embarrass me if I did hold it. Do you see the problem here? You go on to do it again and again in your post. This is pure intellectual dishonesty on your part. You should stop behaving this way when talking to people about what they think about important issues. Conversation cannot take place when one of the participants does things like this.
To humour you for a moment, and to re-formulate this "clash" thing, I think the resistance will likely be only partly military in nature (because someone has to end ISIS eventually), and mostly ideological, and will be reformist Muslims vs. political Islam, with the former being supported by the West in any way possible that doesn't become counterproductive. That's the fairy tale version, anyway.
I was kidding you didnt hurt my feelings. I dont care what you think of me tbh.
If me calling out the putrid smell right wing white nationalism in this thread hurt your feelings then I am proud to ''hurt your feelings''. However I doubt you are human enough to even have such sensitive feelings.
PS - to address your fairy tale of islamic reformists fighting ISIS...Sorry dude but Sam Harris and people who work along with him arent going to face radical Islam head on. They dont have the ability. Radical Islam or Wahhabism didnt come out of a vacuum. It is fueled by western foreign policy and its main victims are Semitic Muslims living far away from Reykjavik or Calgary. So for you to sit behind your thousand dollar laptop in your heated home in a peaceful suburban neighborhood and wax lyrical about Islamists and how the so called regressive left is failing to deal with Islam - you need to know how ridiculous you come across to those who dont suffer from paranoia or bigotry. You act so concerned about Islam and religious extremism. What are you doing about this issue? Have you popped by the local mosque? Have you held a meeting of concerned citizens? Piss off mate. You are another baby whining about something other people are suffering from across the ocean as if your home has been bombed by ISIS and your family has all been murdered. You dont care about those people. This is all about fear and bigotry.
Until you recognize this problem isnt a purely theological one and the typical Muslim is sickened by terrorists - more so than anyone else..we cant have a debate on this. You deserve to be mocked for your opinions. They are stupid. Not only do you lot fail to acknowledge the effect all the foreign meddling in the middle east has had on 'political islam' or fundamentalists - many of you bigots love to pose as theologians who specialize in Islam and know the demographics, beliefs and sentiments of nearly 2 billion extremely diverse people. From the peaceful Shia, Sufi, Ahmadiyya and all the tolerant sub-sects within Sunni Islam. As long as you keep presenting there is no discussion to be had.
If me calling out the putrid smell right wing white nationalism in this thread hurt your feelings then I am proud to ''hurt your feelings''. However I doubt you are human enough to even have such sensitive feelings.
If me calling out the putrid smell right wing white nationalism in this thread hurt your feelings then I am proud to ''hurt your feelings''. However I doubt you are human enough to even have such sensitive feelings.
PS - to address your fairy tale of islamic reformists fighting ISIS...Sorry dude but Sam Harris and people who work along with him arent going to face radical Islam head on. They dont have the ability. Radical Islam or Wahhabism didnt come out of a vacuum. It is fueled by western foreign policy and its main victims are Semitic Muslims living far away from Reykjavik or Calgary. So for you to sit behind your thousand dollar laptop in your heated home in a peaceful suburban neighborhood and wax lyrical about Islamists and how the so called regressive left is failing to deal with Islam - you need to know how ridiculous you come across to those who dont suffer from paranoia or bigotry. You act so concerned about Islam and religious extremism. What are you doing about this issue? Have you popped by the local mosque? Have you held a meeting of concerned citizens? Piss off mate. You are another baby whining about something other people are suffering from across the ocean as if your home has been bombed by ISIS and your family has all been murdered. You dont care about those people. This is all about fear and bigotry.
Until you recognize this problem isnt a purely theological one and the typical Muslim is sickened by terrorists - more so than anyone else..we cant have a debate on this. You deserve to be mocked for your opinions. They are stupid. Not only do you lot fail to acknowledge the effect all the foreign meddling in the middle east has had on 'political islam' or fundamentalists - many of you bigots love to pose as theologians who specialize in Islam and know the demographics, beliefs and sentiments of nearly 2 billion extremely diverse people. From the peaceful Shia, Sufi, Ahmadiyya and all the tolerant sub-sects within Sunni Islam. As long as you keep presenting there is no discussion to be had.
So, Itse, still think this isn't a problem? From what you've seen of how I look at the world, does Crumpy-Gunt's description there sum up my world view pretty accurately, would you say? Or Nik's, Thor's, Peter12's, Cliff's?
I know, I know, he's just one guy. But seriously, it's like he's intentionally playing a role here.
__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
Last edited by CorsiHockeyLeague; 08-20-2016 at 12:50 AM.
many of us have become afraid to speak about Islam critically for fear of sounding like the right wing who attack Islam on much harsher grounds.
Again, when you absolutely insist that people should talk critically of Islam (not Islamism or radical Islamism), I have a really hard time believing that you actually make such distinctions.
And again, just because people are not saying what you want them to say does not mean they are afraid.
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Lets be clear here, its the reformers within Islam, those being hunted down for posting blogs in the Muslim world, which are calling out for modernization within Islam that are most dissapointed at the west for allowing only the more extreme right be the main voice against these issues within Islam,
The extreme right does not talk about about issues WITHIN Islam. They talk about issues WITH Islam. That's a pretty huge distinction.
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while the left has failed to stand up and call out these issues for cultural sensitivity, fear of being called bigots, and a whole host of other nonsense.
And I will just keep repeating myself it seems. Just because you think peoples reasons for saying something or not saying something are "nonsense", or that they're "afraid" does not make it true.
And while you say that you are talking about "some liberals", you again right in the next turn talk about "the left has failed", again as if the whole left is some monolithic creature.
This is the reason why there can be no argument. You insist on generalizing things to a point where the claims you make just can't be taken as reasonable ones.
There is no need to defend a claim such as "the left has failed to stand up". The far left especially has done a ton to stand up. Let's take the very latest case for example, Turkey. The political far left in Europe first warned about and then raged against Turkey slipping into a theocratic democracy. They've done this for I think a decade now. They've held marches, written books, tried to get their talking heads on air, etc etc. It's not the left that failed to support the moderates and the liberals in Turkey. They did what they could. They just don't have almost any power in Europe right now.
(The far left has also for a very long time sympathized the Kurds in the Middle-East, who are relatively secular by that areas standards. They've brough Kurdish speakers on tours in Europe etc.)
The whole rise of radical violent Islamism has happened while most of Europe has been under center right rule.
The only reason I can see for blaming the left for any of what's happened is that you really just don't like lefties. Because factually the claim makes no sense.
And when challenged, he doubles down. It's like a case study.
Who challenged me? You? Ha-ha. I dont really feel challenged by anything you've said. You exposed yourself as 'challenged' when you started talking about clashes between Islam and western civilization and your fairy tale of western backed Islamic reformists sweeping in to save the day against western backed Islamic extremists. You should be a political analyst or something! You seem like a natural.
Who challenged me? You? Ha-ha. I dont really feel challenged by anything you've said. You exposed yourself as 'challenged' when you started talking about clashes between Islam and western civilization and your fairy tale of western backed Islamic reformists sweeping in to save the day against western backed Islamic extremists. You should be a political analyst or something! You seem like a natural.
I really want to see your evidence of right-wing nationalism in this thread.
