2 Calgary brothers charged with sex attack on teen

[rubecube]

Yeah, I totally get not having the death penalty in Canada but why do we don't have consecutive sentences in some circumstances is beyond me.

[puffnstuff]

I really dont like the extra credit for time served.

[DownInFlames]

I'm as big a bleeding heart as you get, but even I think they need to be locked up for a long, long time, if not permanently. What they did to that girl is sickening. Anyone who would do that has to be damaged beyond repair.

[peter12]

It doesn't make sense to me either way. So maybe these guys weren't entirely criminally responsible for the crime, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be kept off the streets indefinitely. Prison isn't just punishment, but an exile to protect society from future harmful effects.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by puffnstuff

I really dont like the extra credit for time served.

Actually that part makes sense just because of the horror stories I've heard regarding pretrial holding cells.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by peter12

It doesn't make sense to me either way. So maybe these guys weren't entirely criminally responsible for the crime, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be kept off the streets indefinitely. Prison isn't just punishment, but an exile to protect society from future harmful effects.

Yeah I tend to think that the rehabilitation should take priority over vengeance, which is why I was okay with Vince Li being let out under the conditions he was let out under. These two are at a high risk of reoffending and clearly have no remorse for what they did. What purpose does it serve to see them back out on the street some day?

[peter12]

There are political considerations in this case, as in many cases involving sexual assault and First Nations.

Frances Widdowson from Mount Royal University has done an excellent job documenting and trending this within the Canadian justice system.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by peter12

There are political considerations in this case, as in many cases involving sexual assault and First Nations.

Frances Widdowson from Mount Royal University has done an excellent job documenting and trending this within the Canadian justice system.

On that note, there's actually been some work done out here on the island by a judge in which he's actively engaged tribal elders and community members to hold offenders accountable within the community in a sort of restorative justice framework. Apparently it's been quite successful and has correlated with a noticeable decline in recidivism. Obviously this generally tends to be more in relation to petty crimes and not things that are as brutal as what's happened in this case but it's been interesting nonetheless.

[heep223]

These guys are gonna have a real bad time in jail.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by heep223

These guys are gonna have a real bad time in jail.

Their misery, whatever form that takes, should be lasting longer and arguably forever. I'm not one to harp much on the justice system, but if that's their max charges under the law for what happened, it is just straight up not harsh enough.

[CliffFletcher]

The Canadian judiciary is under tremendous pressure to reduce the proportion of natives in prison. A few years ago, the supreme court mandated that native background must be taken into account in sentencing.

Judges must weigh cultural factors in native sentencing, court rules

The Supreme Court of Canada has issued an iron-clad edict that sentencing judges must search out lenient or creative sentences for aboriginal offenders that recognize the oppressive cultural conditions many have grown up with...

...“When sentencing an aboriginal offender, courts must take judicial notice of such matters as the history of colonialism, displacement, and residential schools and how that history continues to translate into lower educational attainment, lower incomes, higher unemployment, higher rates of substance abuse and suicide, and, of course, higher levels of incarceration for aboriginal peoples,” he said.

It seemed pretty clear to me at the time that the #### would hit the fan when this principal was applied to a horrific crime. This might be that case.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The Canadian judiciary is under tremendous pressure to reduce the proportion of natives in prison. A few years ago, the supreme court mandated that native background must be taken into account in sentencing.

Judges must weigh cultural factors in native sentencing, court rules



It seemed pretty clear to me at the time that the #### would hit the fan when this principal was applied to a horrific crime. This might be that case.

Funny article there as the author uses a least 3 chronological politically-correct terms for indigenous people - native (1960s), aboriginal (1990s to 2000s), and indigenous (present).

Canadian society is so confused on this subject - with good reason - and edicts like this just serve to reinforce damage within the community.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by peter12

Funny article there as the author uses a least 3 chronological politically-correct terms for indigenous people - native (1960s), aboriginal (1990s to 2000s), and indigenous (present).

Canadian society is so confused on this subject - with good reason - and edicts like this just serve to reinforce damage within the community.

True. I just moved to Vancouver having always referred to native people, as well, native people. Apparently that's not ok in BC. I always thought that was really one of the three politically correct term for someone of those (what is obviously a very wide range of) heritages.

1960's seems more of an "indian" time period to me s someone witholder family members from that era who still refer to them as such by reflex.

People still publically refer to indigenous people as indian in the US with incredible regularity. Public figures, you name it. Which seems literally insane to me. They are just not indian people.

[peter12]

Cliff will probably correct me but I believe native was the 1960s attempt to move away from Indian, which was seen as anachronistic relic from the 1800s.

Indian is still the term used colloquially on reserves, but indigenous is the correct term for polite Canadian society.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by heep223

These guys are gonna have a real bad time in jail.

No they're really not. Native gangs run most of the jails so all they have to do is join one and they're safe.

[speede5]

FASD is such a difficult one to deal with, they know right and wrong but just can't straighten out. Jail won't help at all. Rehab is almost pointlesss. There is no easy answer for this.

[MBates]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The Canadian judiciary is under tremendous pressure to reduce the proportion of natives in prison. A few years ago, the supreme court mandated that native background must be taken into account in sentencing.

Judges must weigh cultural factors in native sentencing, court rules



It seemed pretty clear to me at the time that the #### would hit the fan when this principal was applied to a horrific crime. This might be that case.

The annoying part is how sensationalist media deceive the public and make people hate the justice system based on misinformation.

Consider one of the main quotes from the article...and then look at what the actual court ruling says and note the part in bold that somehow didn't make it into the story:

https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/sc.../8000/index.do

To be clear, courts must take judicial notice of such matters as the history of colonialism, displacement, and residential schools and how that history continues to translate into lower educational attainment, lower incomes, higher unemployment, higher rates of substance abuse and suicide, and of course higher levels of incarceration for Aboriginal peoples. These matters, on their own, do not necessarily justify a different sentence for Aboriginal offenders. Rather, they provide the necessary context for understanding and evaluating the case-specific information presented by counsel. Counsel have a duty to bring that individualized information before the court in every case, unless the offender expressly waives his right to have it considered. In current practice, it appears that case-specific information is often brought before the court by way of a Gladue report, which is a form of pre-sentence report tailored to the specific circumstances of Aboriginal offenders. Bringing such information to the attention of the judge in a comprehensive and timely manner is helpful to all parties at a sentencing hearing for an Aboriginal offender, as it is indispensable to a judge in fulfilling his duties under s. 718.2 (e) of the Criminal Code .

There is tremendous pressure to not disproportionately put native offenders in jail while ignoring the historical context of the systemic disadvantages that some of them have suffered.

Courts must look into whether the offender's aboriginal background did in fact have anything to do with their offending and what a fit sentence should be. They do not have to give any reduction whatsoever if it is not warranted.

[Montag]

Originally Posted by MBates

Courts must look into whether the offender's aboriginal background did in fact have anything to do with their offending and what a fit sentence should be. They do not have to give any reduction whatsoever if it is not warranted.

This is technically not true, at least in Alberta:

1. An offender is not required to establish a causal link between background factors and the commission of the current offence before being entitled to have those matters considered by the sentencing judge

R. v. Laboucane
2016 ABCA 176, 2016 CarswellAlta 1072, [2016] A.W.L.D. 3063, [2016] A.W.L.D. 3071, [2016] A.W.L.D. 3072, [2016] A.J. No. 593
at para 63

The sentence still has to be warranted but if the aboriginal background has nothing to do with the particular offence, they still have to consider it as a factor.

[MBates]

Originally Posted by Montag

This is technically not true, at least in Alberta:

1. An offender is not required to establish a causal link between background factors and the commission of the current offence before being entitled to have those matters considered by the sentencing judge

R. v. Laboucane
2016 ABCA 176, 2016 CarswellAlta 1072, [2016] A.W.L.D. 3063, [2016] A.W.L.D. 3071, [2016] A.W.L.D. 3072, [2016] A.J. No. 593
at para 63

The sentence still has to be warranted but if the aboriginal background has nothing to do with the particular offence, they still have to consider it as a factor.

Nice try...but you stopped reading that case just a little too soon. Number four from the same list you quoted from:

4. Unless the unique circumstances of the particular offender bear on his or her culpability for the offence or indicate which sentencing objectives can and should be actualized, “they will not influence the ultimate sentence”: Ipeelee at para 83.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Yeah, I totally get not having the death penalty in Canada but why do we don't have consecutive sentences in some circumstances is beyond me.

Judges in Canada have the discretion to order that multiple custodial sentences be served either concurrently or consecutively.