Alberta Politics Thread

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by calculoso

Imagine that... If you suddenly reduce the number of countries ranked, the ones in the middle and bottom all of a sudden get closer to #1.

Uhm,

If you DON'T lump the EU together Canada ranks 7th in GHG emissions from energy combustion. Thanks for coming out.

The EU negotiaties its GHG emissions reduction commitments as a block not as individual countries so that's the a reason to lump them together. I'm sure you knew that though already.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

The baked in ignorance of the Canada should do nothing crowd is makes me despair.

China invested over 200 billion in the last five years in energy efficiency (Canada's allocated 128 million over the next five years) and over $100 billion in renewable energy last year.

India built 20 GW of solar energy in 2015 all while having a lower energy consumption per capita than the African continent.

To ignorantly boast about how little everyone else is doing is just full bollocks.

Yes, but at the same time they're also developing their fossil fuel resources as well. They're working on renewables, while not cratering their entire economy by going cold turkey on fossil fuels.

You know, the path that everyone here is advocating for. A smart, sustainable path to lessen our reliance on fossil fuels, and grow our renewables.

For example, the only numbers I can find is that Alberta invested almost a billion dollars in 2014 on a wind farm. Ontario in the same year invested 4.5B. As you should probably know, since you are one of the un-ignorant, the provinces do the major lifting for this, and not the federal government.

Source

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by Regorium

Yes, but at the same time they're also developing their fossil fuel resources as well. They're working on renewables, while not cratering their entire economy by going cold turkey on fossil fuels.

You know, the path that everyone here is advocating for. A smart, sustainable path to lessen our reliance on fossil fuels, and grow our renewables.

For example, the only numbers I can find is that Alberta invested almost a billion dollars in 2014 on a wind farm. Ontario in the same year invested 4.5B. As you should probably know, since you are one of the un-ignorant, the provinces do the major lifting for this, and not the federal government.

Source

Everyone in this thread is arguing for that? If so then that's a tautology. We have the mouth-foam constituency railing against a carbon tax which is the least invasive, cheapest method to to get on a "smart, sustainable path to lessen our reliance on fossil fuels, and grow our renewables." As you say.

China's going to implement a carbon price in the next five years. They already have implemented 6 cap and trade programs in 6 of their largest cities covering more people than live in Canada. That will roll-out to whole country as part of the 13th Five Year Plan. So if what they're doing is "smart" then why are we spiralling off into the lunatic fringe?

[Resolute 14]

Tinordi, I would imagine you must have incredible upper body strength given how frequently you move the goalposts.

[Tinordi]

Ok... explain how I'm moving the goal posts?

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Everyone in this thread is arguing for that? If so then that's a tautology. We have the mouth-foam constituency railing against a carbon tax which is the least invasive, cheapest method to to get on a "smart, sustainable path to lessen our reliance on fossil fuels, and grow our renewables." As you say.

China's going to implement a carbon price in the next five years. They already have implemented 6 cap and trade programs in 6 of their largest cities covering more people than live in Canada. That will roll-out to whole country as part of the 13th Five Year Plan. So if what they're doing is "smart" then why are we spiralling off into the lunatic fringe?

My bad, I thought we were talking about how Canada does nothing. We do a lot but our awful climate, large houses and lifestyle are also major contributors. Power generation is only ~25% of our emissions. The vast majority is agriculture, building heating, and transportation. Industry, of course, is the remaining contributor.

If we're talking about being angry about carbon tax, then yeah, I do agree with you - Carbon tax is fine and is a very good policy for combating climate change.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

The baked in ignorance of the Canada should do nothing crowd is makes me despair.

Bravo.. Way to completely mis-characterize the opinions of 95% of people in this discussion.

[Resolute 14]

"Canada would be 11th in GHG emissions if you combine a bunch of countries" (ironically, you could have just used the table Wikipedia provides, which had us 9th in 2010 among countries rather than using supranational bodies)

You get challenged on that, so reply by twisting the argument to focus on "emissions from energy combustion".

I'm looking forward to the next argument, where you point out how Canada has the highest emissions of any country with a city that starts with E, ends with N and has a very crappy hockey team.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

If you DON'T lump the EU together Canada ranks 7th in GHG emissions from energy combustion. Thanks for coming out.

If you lump the EU together into 1, then Canada falls 4 spots?

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by calculoso

If you lump the EU together into 1, then Canada falls 4 spots?

He changed the argument and hoped nobody would notice.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by Regorium

My bad, I thought we were talking about how Canada does nothing. We do a lot but our awful climate, large houses and lifestyle are also major contributors. Power generation is only ~25% of our emissions. The vast majority is agriculture, building heating, and transportation. Industry, of course, is the remaining contributor.

If we're talking about being angry about carbon tax, then yeah, I do agree with you - Carbon tax is fine and is a very good policy for combating climate change.

Thing is that every country in the world can come up with specific national reasons why it's difficult for them to reduce fossil fuel consumption. It's solipsistic.

At the end of the day, it's a collective action problem. No one country is responsible but every country will be at the mercy of the costs of climate change if we do nothing.

Considering that Canada is one of the largest national emitters, has one of the highest emissions per capita, and is one of the richest countries in the world is it not the ethical, responsible thing to do to quit complaining and get on with doing something?

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

"Canada would be 11th in GHG emissions if you combine a bunch of countries" (ironically, you could have just used the table Wikipedia provides, which had us 9th in 2010 among countries rather than using supranational bodies)

You get challenged on that, so reply by twisting the argument to focus on "emissions from energy combustion".

I'm looking forward to the next argument, where you point out how Canada has the highest emissions of any country with a city that starts with E, ends with N and has a very crappy hockey team.

Explain how that qualifier changes my argument.

[LChoy]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Thing is that every country in the world can come up with specific national reasons why it's difficult for them to reduce fossil fuel consumption. It's solipsistic.

At the end of the day, it's a collective action problem. No one country is responsible but every country will be at the mercy of the costs of climate change if we do nothing.

Considering that Canada is one of the largest national emitters, has one of the highest emissions per capita, and is one of the richest countries in the world is it not the ethical, responsible thing to do to quit complaining and get on with doing something?

Unless I'm mistaken with most of the other posters in this thread, the issue here isn't intent. There is wide support that Canada should be doing something to fight climate change. The issue here is how we go about it and to proceed in a manner that is practical, effective, and can inspire other countries to follow suit.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by Lchoy

Unless I'm mistaken with most of the other posters in this thread, the issue here isn't intent. There is wide support that Canada should be doing something to fight climate change. The issue here is how we go about it and to proceed in a manner that is practical, effective, and can inspire other countries to follow suit.

Sure, all on board for that.

So why is what the Climate Leadership Panel recommended to the Alberta government not the way to go?

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Explain how that qualifier changes my argument.

Really?

You want me to explain how changing the argument changes the argument?

Really??

[Tinordi]

My argument is that Canada is a big emitter whether it's 11th or 7th it's still big. It's not changing the goal posts. I referred to fuel combustion emissions because I had that data at the ready on a national scale (whereas the full emissions I only had the EU aggregate).

It doesn't do anythign to change my argument that while we may only be 2% of global emissions we're still in the top 10ish emitters of 189 countries.

So yes, please explain how I'm moving the goal posts.

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Explain how that qualifier changes my argument.

Explain why you're filling up an Alberta politics thread with this nonsense.

[Igniter]

I have no issues with the Carbon Tax. I am not in the do nothing group. However, I do have severe problems with how we go about reducing our footprint.

Personally, I would have announced a carbon tax with an implementation date of a couple years into the future. This would allow companies to pragmatically approach the problem and upgrade/retrofit/change areas of their businesses that would be hardest hit. It also gives them a decent shot at reducing their emissions substantially before they ever have to start paying the tax.

For example: a coal power plant could study and implement a carbon capture system well before the tax is implemented, thereby not paying a government money that doesn't put it all directly into sustainable development. Knowing full well what the carbon tax would cost them, they will have spent capital to "save" money.

Not saying that coal plants are going to survive... but replace "coal" with a "natural gas" and the same scenario could apply.

Or trucking companies who have been studying converting to LNG or CNG systems, knowing what the tax will do to the cost of diesel, decide to convert. The infrastructure of NG filling stations is built over this time period as well, and the company sees no significant interruption into their normal operations. They will end up paying a price for their services, but it will be smaller as they have switched to a lower carbon fuel.

Instead of a carbon tax... it should be viewed as a price of carbon... to some maybe it means the same thing, but to me the difference is as simple as the government forcing you to pay them for something vs the market dictating the cost of producing for something. Let the market adapt and create jobs, without the outright destruction of the economy. An economy does NOT suddenly create all these green jobs like politicians and governments promise.

Again. It's not about not reducing our emissions. It's about reducing them in a manner that doesn't put us at a competitive disadvantage within the world economy and doesn't destroy some of the largest contributors to this province's and country's economy.

Or hey, let's stop generating power from coal and producing from the oil-sands immediately, watch our economy get even worse than it is today and get a pat on the back from the US and the rest of the world. All while they secretly laugh at us as they continue to produce oil and gas in record numbers and producer power from coal.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful

Explain why you're filling up an Alberta politics thread with this nonsense.

I honestly can't think of an issue that is currently more relevant to the Alberta Politics thread than the carbon tax and climate change.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Igniter

Let the market adapt and create jobs, without the outright destruction of the economy. An economy does NOT suddenly create all these green jobs like politicians and governments promise.

Again. It's not about not reducing our emissions. It's about reducing them in a manner that doesn't put us at a competitive disadvantage within the world economy and doesn't destroy some of the largest contributors to this province's and country's economy.

Or hey, let's stop generating power from coal and producing from the oil-sands immediately, watch our economy get even worse than it is today and get a pat on the back from the US and the rest of the world. All while they secretly laugh at us as they continue to produce oil and gas in record numbers and producer power from coal.

Exactly