Alberta Politics Thread

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Well, yeah. Anyone who is actually serious about GHG reduction would want the countries who produce the most GHGes to reduce the most.

People like you, on the other hand, are really after wealth redistribution masquerading as environmental stewardship.

Actually, people like him want the people who produce the most GHGs to reduce the most.

[RougeUnderoos]

eff it

[cal_guy]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Well, yeah. Anyone who is actually serious about GHG reduction would want the countries who produce the most GHGes to reduce the most.

People like you, on the other hand, are really after wealth redistribution masquerading as environmental stewardship.

No if your serious about GHG reduction your to going to focus hitting the lowest hanging fruit possible while taking into account the resources available to that jurisdiction.

Here's what the climate plan uses the tax revenue for.

56% goes to output based subsidies to large emitters (100,000t CO2e per year)
10% goes to low income households
1% Adjustment assistance(mainly coal towns)
3% to lowering the small business corporate tax rate
9% Green infrastructure
3% Energy efficient infrastructure
18% Renewables

Instead of the bold items I would go for corporate tax cuts of around 3 or 4%. Basically no wealth redistribution.

Originally Posted by stampsx2

What a bad comparison.

You are aware that Canada produces 2% of the world's carbon emissions right? Of that 2% the oil sands produces 0.15% of the worlds carbon emissions right?

You are aware that china and the u.s. total 40% of the worlds emissions right?

It doesn't matter if we're a drop in the bucket because we're filling the same bucket. In any case the climate plan effectively matches what China's goal.

But maybe you're looking at talking per person. Ok.
There are 13 countries ahead of canada's in carbon production per capita. None of which are cold weather climates. The countries include saudi arabia, austrailia and the u.s.

And we should pressure those countries, and now that GHG policies are slightly more stringent GHG policy we have to power to do so.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

eff it

It was a good post. You should have left it here. Its important to have a dissenting voice in the echo chamber.

[Igniter]

Originally Posted by cal_guy

It doesn't matter if we're a drop in the bucket because we're filling the same bucket. In any case the climate plan effectively matches what China's goal.

And we should pressure those countries, and now that GHG policies are slightly more stringent GHG policy we have to power to do so.

What about the US though? What about their "goals"? Do we really think that we are going to impact what they do?

USA Oil Growth Forecast

They are continuing to build pipelines and produce oil ... and export it! While we as a country are trying to find the social license to get our products to market.

They do not have a carbon tax (yet) while our province has created one that will be one of the highest in the country.

They haven't raised taxes on the corporations during one of the worst oil crashes ever.

What we as a country, namely the left, do not appear to understand is that this does not have to happen overnight nor is it reasonable for it to happen overnight. Certainly we don't have to be so far ahead of the curve that we effectively destroy our provinces economy for the next decade. The United States will continue to produce oil in large quantities for decades to come. So can we, while still reducing our GHG.

[Kjesse]

So this is the NDP perspective. This person named Littlewood, thinks taxpayers should refund politicians for their expenses for these reasons:

Littlewood said it shouldn’t be a partisan issue and the plan is about making sure there’s a “good, strong, healthy democracy in Alberta.”
“Elections should not belong to only those that can afford it.”


Protip: If in a democracy people aren't donating to your camapign, that should be their right. Don't force them to donate through mandatory tax-payer funding.

[cal_guy]

Originally Posted by Igniter

What about the US though? What about their "goals"? Do we really think that we are going to impact what they do?

USA Oil Growth Forecast

They are continuing to build pipelines and produce oil ... and export it! While we as a country are trying to find the social license to get our products to market.

They do not have a carbon tax (yet) while our province has created one that will be one of the highest in the country.

They haven't raised taxes on the corporations during one of the worst oil crashes ever.

What we as a country, namely the left, do not appear to understand is that this does not have to happen overnight nor is it reasonable for it to happen overnight. Certainly we don't have to be so far ahead of the curve that we effectively destroy our provinces economy for the next decade. The United States will continue to produce oil in large quantities for decades to come. So can we, while still reducing our GHG.

First our Carbon Tax ties BC.
Second the US commitment is 26-28% below 2005 by 2025. I don't know if they will hit but matching our reductions would be pretty trivial. (We would probably require a carbon price of $150/ton to hit that target)
Third those US pipelines are the reason that the non-quality discount for our oil is basically gone and they've been gone for a while.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Igniter

What we as a country, namely the left, do not appear to understand is that this does not have to happen overnight nor is it reasonable for it to happen overnight. Certainly we don't have to be so far ahead of the curve that we effectively destroy our provinces economy for the next decade. The United States will continue to produce oil in large quantities for decades to come. So can we, while still reducing our GHG.

That's not what's important, dude. What they want is to be able to look their noses down at people and bask in their own sense of superiority, even if it means people go bankrupt and families end up on the streets.

[para transit fellow]

Originally Posted by Igniter

What about the US though? What about their "goals"? Do we really think that we are going to impact what they do?

USA Oil Growth Forecast

They are continuing to build pipelines and produce oil ... and export it! While we as a country are trying to find the social license to get our products to market.

They do not have a carbon tax (yet) while our province has created one that will be one of the highest in the country.

They haven't raised taxes on the corporations during one of the worst oil crashes ever.

What we as a country, namely the left, do not appear to understand is that this does not have to happen overnight nor is it reasonable for it to happen overnight. Certainly we don't have to be so far ahead of the curve that we effectively destroy our provinces economy for the next decade. The United States will continue to produce oil in large quantities for decades to come. So can we, while still reducing our GHG.

Seems like Alaska is raising tax on corporations

http://www.adn.com/politics/2016/07/...ecial-session/

[Igniter]

Originally Posted by para transit fellow

Seems like Alaska is raising tax on corporations

http://www.adn.com/politics/2016/07/...ecial-session/

I don't know about that... the way I read it is that they are proposing a sales tax instead of an income tax.

Then with regards to oil, 2 pieces of the proposal.

1. They are removing any tax credit an oil company receives from a loss, which would be happening @ current prices.

2. Then a tax (royalty) of minimum 5% on any barrel produced when prices are above 55$.

From my perspective, it's not necessarily an outright attack on an oil company. Sure they are reducing an incentive to spend money when you can't make it back right away, but at the same time they are not taking money from every barrel until its at a price where companies are likely making money again.

Again. It's all proposed. Nothing has been passed to date and the republicans aren't letting them completely destroy a large portion of the economy.

[Igniter]

Originally Posted by cal_guy

First our Carbon Tax ties BC.
Second the US commitment is 26-28% below 2005 by 2025. I don't know if they will hit but matching our reductions would be pretty trivial. (We would probably require a carbon price of $150/ton to hit that target)
Third those US pipelines are the reason that the non-quality discount for our oil is basically gone and they've been gone for a while.

1. By 2020 our carbon tax will be the highest in Canada according to a recent report. Carbon Tax

2. So we destroy our economy, while letting the United States continue to produce and chug along... and likely it doesn't matter to the planet because our emissions are so small?

3. While Edmonton Light Crude trades pretty close to WTI... what we need is a better price for the Western Canada Select... which trades at a pretty stiff differential right now... Those pipelines have helped sure... but the Bakken makes a lot of oil... Oil Prices

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Well, yeah. Anyone who is actually serious about GHG reduction would want the countries who produce the most GHGes to reduce the most.

That seems a little off to me. I mean sure, it'd be great if China and India and the US were out front on this, but we don't have much say in the matter in those places.

It doesn't seem irrational to me to actually want to do something you can do, as opposed to not do anything because there is another thing you can't do.

(the thing we can't do is get them to do anything)

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

People like you, on the other hand, are really after wealth redistribution masquerading as environmental stewardship.

I know it's fun (soothing, even) to believe in the climate change conspiracy, and that people who claim to care about the environment actually don't care at all and they just have their eyes on our wallets, but the science could be true, and some people might actually care about the environment. It's worth thinking about at least.

[cal_guy]

Originally Posted by Igniter

1. By 2020 our carbon tax will be the highest in Canada according to a recent report. Carbon Tax

2. So we destroy our economy, while letting the United States continue to produce and chug along... and likely it doesn't matter to the planet because our emissions are so small?

3. While Edmonton Light Crude trades pretty close to WTI... what we need is a better price for the Western Canada Select... which trades at a pretty stiff differential right now... Those pipelines have helped sure... but the Bakken makes a lot of oil... Oil Prices

1. The one you should care about is the marginal rate because it's the one you and I will pay.

2. While it's true that the US hasn't enacted explicit carbon price it has enacted several significant pieces of regulations such as the Clean Power Plan(it's implementation has been stay by the Supreme Court but will likely survive assuming Clinton wins the presidency) which is the equivalent of reducing 3 Alberta by 2030.

3. The spread between WCS and WTI is because of the transportation cost and it's lesser quality. Mixed Sweet has better demand regionally so it's get better prices because of the lower transportation costs.

[GaiJin]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I know it's fun (soothing, even) to believe in the climate change conspiracy, and that people who claim to care about the environment actually don't care at all and they just have their eyes on our wallets, but the science could be true, and some people might actually care about the environment. It's worth thinking about at least.

Then come up with something more pragmatic other than taking money off of people while they have no viable alternative.

[cal_guy]

Originally Posted by GaiJin

Then come up with something more pragmatic other than taking money off of people while they have no viable alternative.

Any attempt to reduce CO2 emissions will have costs associated and they will be less efficient then a carbon tax.

[GaiJin]

Originally Posted by cal_guy

Any attempt to reduce CO2 emissions will have costs associated and they will be less efficient then a carbon tax.

Bs, think harder.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

That seems a little off to me. I mean sure, it'd be great if China and India and the US were out front on this, but we don't have much say in the matter in those places.

It doesn't seem irrational to me to actually want to do something you can do, as opposed to not do anything because there is another thing you can't do.

(the thing we can't do is get them to do anything)

And the other thing is that nobody anywhere is going to give a flying fig what we do. I am not saying "do nothing". But I am saying that we shouldn't kill ourselves doing something that won't make a difference and which nobody is going to notice anyway. I could support a smart plan, but what the NDP have produced is not a smart plan.

I know it's fun (soothing, even) to believe in the climate change conspiracy, and that people who claim to care about the environment actually don't care at all and they just have their eyes on our wallets, but the science could be true, and some people might actually care about the environment. It's worth thinking about at least.

Swing and a miss. I was talking about the people who make excuses for the world's largest polluters while offering none for us, not environmentalists as a whole.

[Tinordi]

Canada's 11th in GHG emissions (if you lump the EU countries together).

It's not like we're some inconsequential flea.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Canada's 11th in GHG emissions (if you lump the EU countries together).

Imagine that... If you suddenly reduce the number of countries ranked, the ones in the middle and bottom all of a sudden get closer to #1.

[Tinordi]

The baked in ignorance of the Canada should do nothing crowd is makes me despair.

China invested over 200 billion in the last five years in energy efficiency (Canada's allocated 128 million over the next five years) and over $100 billion in renewable energy last year.

India built 20 GW of solar energy in 2015 all while having a lower energy consumption per capita than the African continent.

To ignorantly boast about how little everyone else is doing is just full bollocks.