It's a shame. I've been there twice, spending 5 weeks there altogether. Visited every region except the far east. Beautiful country. Remarkably hospitable people. Great food. So much history.
We can't blame this on colonialism. Or on Iraq or Bush. Or poverty. The Turkish people have turned their back on modernity and liberalism. We really need to figure out why Islamic societies seem incompatible with liberal social and economic values.
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Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
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It's crazy. I remember when I went to Turkey and a few locals I talked to bragged and were proud that they were a "western secular Islamic" country and they really tried to separate themselves from the religious wing nuts. Looking back now, it seems it may have been more insecurity than confidence.
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"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
It's crazy. I remember when I went to Turkey and a few locals I talked to bragged and were proud that they were a "western secular Islamic" country and they really tried to separate themselves from the religious wing nuts. Looking back now, it seems it may have been more insecurity than confidence.
Yeah, the Turks I met were always quick to denounce their 'backwards' fellow Turks in the interior. I think one of the problems is the secularized Turks in the cities and the coasts have European birth rates, while the conservatives have been cranking out three to five kids a family. The Muslim parts of the world are about the only countries that haven't seen big drops in birth rates in the last 50 years. That's a huge problem.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
It's a shame. I've been there twice, spending 5 weeks there altogether. Visited every region except the far east. Beautiful country. Remarkably hospitable people. Great food. So much history.
We can't blame this on colonialism. Or on Iraq or Bush. Or poverty. The Turkish people have turned their back on modernity and liberalism. We really need to figure out why Islamic societies seem incompatible with liberal social and economic values.
Have you ever read The Impossible State? Hallaq does a pretty job of outlining why Islam and the modern liberal state are incompatible. He's a little too nostalgic for traditional Islam for my tastes, but it's a good breakdown nonetheless.
The problem is the 3 books of Islam, are not just about how to be a Muslim, but rather how to be a civilization, its all about how to deal with non believers, how to govern, and this is as we all know very problematic with western civilization.
63% of the Quran is about how to deal with non believers, the Kufar, the biography of Mohammed is about his first years failing to attract followers until he started Jihad and aggressive expansion of Islam.
Turkey signs a mutual defence plan with Russia while being a NATO member. How does this even work? So does Russia use this defence agreement as a way to push further into Ukraine?
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Turkey and Russia will establish a joint military, intelligence and diplomacy mechanism, Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said Wednesday.
Speaking at Anadolu Agency’s Editors’ Desk, Cavusoglu said the previous day’s meeting between Presidents Recep Tayyip Erdogan and Vladimir Putin had paved the way for closer ties following a nine-month freeze after the shooting down of a Russian warplane.
Erdogan’s trip to Russia and the revival of ties between Russia and Turkey have sparked concern that the NATO member is turning increasingly to the East as it feels rebuffed by the West over a host of issues such as EU membership and the West’s tepid response to the defeated July 15 coup.
Questioned about increased cooperation between the Turkish and Russian defense industries in the context of Turkey’s NATO role, Cavusoglu said Ankara had already established defense sector cooperation with non-NATO countries, including missile development.
“Turkey wanted to cooperate with NATO members up to this point,” the minister said. “But the results we got did not satisfy us. Therefore, it is natural to look for other options. But we don’t see this as a move against NATO.”
Turkey signs a mutual defence plan with Russia while being a NATO member. How does this even work? So does Russia use this defence agreement as a way to push further into Ukraine?
This is actually really significant. How they (Turkey) can say it doesn't go against NATO is ridiculous. They just signed an intelligence agreement with NATOs biggest adversary, and being a NATO member themselves, they are going to have access to all kinds of NATO intelligence. They need to be cut off by NATO if they aren't already.
Turkey is strategically important for NATO, but they are also the biggest weakness given their instability and inability to control their borders (not to mention history of war, colonization and occupation against other NATO countries). Some people in Europe will always have trouble accepting Turkey for that reason, whether it is fair or not.
I wonder if NATO starts wooing Ukraine again. IMO, Russia signing this agreement with Turkey is no different than NATO going into Ukraine.
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Last edited by FlamesAddiction; 08-10-2016 at 12:22 PM.
This is actually really significant. How they (Turkey) can say it doesn't go against NATO is ridiculous. They just signed an intelligence agreement with NATOs biggest adversary, and being a NATO member themselves, they are going to have access to all kinds of NATO intelligence. They need to be cut off by NATO if they aren't already.
Turkey is strategically important for NATO, but they are also the biggest weakness given their instability and inability to control their borders (not to mention history of war, colonization and occupation against other NATO countries).
I wonder if NATO goes starts wooing Ukraine again. IMO, Russia signing this agreement with Turkey is no different than NATO going into Ukraine.
Agree. This is a significant milestone in Turkey's ongoing transition from a clear Western ally, to one that's significantly more muddied. Coupled with Erdogan's purge (something that Putin can give him a great deal of advice on), and Turkey's status as a NATO ally is clearly floundering.
I've always wanted to visit Turkey. However, as others have already mentioned, it's distinction as a top travel choice for myself is quickly disappearing.
This is actually really significant. How they (Turkey) can say it doesn't go against NATO is ridiculous. They just signed an intelligence agreement with NATOs biggest adversary, and being a NATO member themselves, they are going to have access to all kinds of NATO intelligence. They need to be cut off by NATO if they aren't already.
Turkey is strategically important for NATO, but they are also the biggest weakness given their instability and inability to control their borders (not to mention history of war, colonization and occupation against other NATO countries). Some people in Europe will always have trouble accepting Turkey for that reason, whether it is fair or not.
I wonder if NATO starts wooing Ukraine again. IMO, Russia signing this agreement with Turkey is no different than NATO going into Ukraine.
Nato will go into full freak out mode, they have to view Turkey with a lot of suspicion now, especially in terms of intelligence leaks.
They really can't kick Turkey out because it would basically put the entire black sea into Russian hands, it would make resupply and access to states like the Ukraine really tough if the balloon ever drops. Russia would be able to cut off the Ukraine from sea borne assets, Nato would lose a tremendous amount of air stike power and convienience, and Russia would no longer need to worry about their Southern Flank, they could concentrate on one powerful Western push. The imbalances of forces between NATO and Russia in terms of Eastern Europe would be significantly multiplied on the Russian side as they have three army groups in Western Russia
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Genuine rapprochement between Russia and Turkey would be historic. They're been bitter enemies for about 300 years.
Putin and Erdogan are like twins separated at birth that have at last found each other. It makes every sense that they would cooperate - that pesky plane incident was unfortunate. I bet Erdogan came to St. Petersburgh bearing gifts - "thanks to the 'coup', I was able to procure a special memento for you, Comrade Putin. Here are the heads of the operator of the SAM battery, his commanding officer, and the head of the anti-aircraft forces. Friends forever?"
I have not looked at the fine print, but isn't this effectively Turkey leaving NATO?
With Turkey helping fund ISIS and not doing anything to cut and curb their supply lines, they are only as strong a NATO ally as they want to be.
Turkey is a important ally strategically, but ideologically they are no ally to the west or NATO. Ultimadum time for Turkey, after saying they will go to war with any country who supports US based cleric Fethullah Gulen. **** em.
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Originally Posted by Yamer
Even though he says he only wanted steak and potatoes, he was aware of all the rapes.
Between the Asia Pacific, NATO gathering on Russia's doorstep and their appropriate response, terrorism wreaking havoc, and Turkey failing NATO... Chess board is set up rather nicely isn't it?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamer
Even though he says he only wanted steak and potatoes, he was aware of all the rapes.
Between the Asia Pacific, NATO gathering on Russia's doorstep and their appropriate response, terrorism wreaking havoc, and Turkey failing NATO... Chess board is set up rather nicely isn't it?
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Agree. This is a significant milestone in Turkey's ongoing transition from a clear Western ally, to one that's significantly more muddied. Coupled with Erdogan's purge (something that Putin can give him a great deal of advice on), and Turkey's status as a NATO ally is clearly floundering.
I've always wanted to visit Turkey. However, as others have already mentioned, it's distinction as a top travel choice for myself is quickly disappearing.
I know I'm re-quoting myself, but after doing some more reading this afternoon, the tightening relationship between Turkey and Russia may not have such a drastic relationship on Turkey's position within NATO after all.
"Relations hit rock bottom last November when Turkey's air force shot down a Russian warplane that strayed briefly into Turkish air space while on a mission over Syria.
Russia imposed economic sanctions that hurt Turkey's tourism and agricultural sectors. Russians normally fill the resorts on Turkey's Mediterranean coast, but Moscow grounded charter flights last fall, leading to a 90 per cent decline in Russian visits."
Based on the above, there has always been a relationship between the two countries, and this is just the mending of a previously broken down one.
Turkish admiral, missing since the coup, turns up and is seeking asylum in the US.
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A high-ranking Turkish military officer has reportedly claimed asylum in the United States after authorities in Turkey linked him to the failed coup.
Mustafa Ugurlu had been on a posting to a Nato base in Virginia at the time of the 15 July botched coup.
Turkey has purged its military ranks of some 100 generals accused of being part of a shadowy movement that follows a US-based Turkish preacher.
Rear Adm Ugurlu disappeared on 22 July, a week after the coup.
I know I'm re-quoting myself, but after doing some more reading this afternoon, the tightening relationship between Turkey and Russia may not have such a drastic relationship on Turkey's position within NATO after all.
"Relations hit rock bottom last November when Turkey's air force shot down a Russian warplane that strayed briefly into Turkish air space while on a mission over Syria.
Russia imposed economic sanctions that hurt Turkey's tourism and agricultural sectors. Russians normally fill the resorts on Turkey's Mediterranean coast, but Moscow grounded charter flights last fall, leading to a 90 per cent decline in Russian visits."
Based on the above, there has always been a relationship between the two countries, and this is just the mending of a previously broken down one.
I did a tour of Greece and Turkey a few years ago. I was mostly just in the touristy areas of Turkey though, so I didn't see the more backwards areas. But yeah, both countries were full of Russian tourists at that time. I remember going into a jewelry store with my wife and a Turkish lady asked us if we were Russian and we said no, that we were Canadian. She said that was great and we could try on whatever we want and then just ask for help if we needed it. She said she wanted to make sure that we weren't Russian because they either steal or never buy anything, and then said that she hates Russians. I thought it was funny.
I also noticed a lot of cheap fur coat stores which confused me at first seeing as they are both hot countries, but I found out they are for the Russian. It's like us going to Mexico and buying hammocks I guess.
As far as the politcs go, I do think part of Turkey's shift toward Russia has a little to do with Western support for Kurds over the passed decade. The Iraq war is the gift that just keeps on giving.
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"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
Last edited by FlamesAddiction; 08-10-2016 at 05:49 PM.
