Fentanyl crisis in Calgary: Vice documentary

[Street Pharmacist]

I'm going to need a more compelling argument to eliminate all barriers to an incredibly dangerous substance than:
-what we're doing isn't working
-people are going to do it anyways

[Vulcan]

Sure I guess bootleg booze is still distilled among farmers but that wasn't the general term for bootlegging back before they changed the liquor laws. Victoria Park used to be filled with bootleggers who sold booze on Sundays, after hours and to minors. They made a killing on holidays and during beer strikes. When they allowed clubs to be open till 2 AM, lowered the drinking age and privatized liquor stores who opened 7 days a week with late hours, the bootleggers, and illegal booze cans pretty much went out of business.

So yeah legalizing a product, although less fun, can put the illegal operators out of business.

The less fun part is meaning that some attraction to illegal drugs may be because it's taboo and you like the idea of getting away with something.

I remember telling an old bootlegger that he'd have to start selling pot. He looked at me like I was from Mars.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Sure I guess bootleg booze is still distilled among farmers but that wasn't the general term for bootlegging back before they changed the liquor laws. Victoria Park used to be filled with bootleggers who sold booze on Sundays, after hours and to minors. They made a killing on holidays and during beer strikes. When they allowed clubs to be open till 2 AM, lowered the drinking age and privatized liquor stores who opened 7 days a week with late hours, the bootleggers, and illegal booze cans pretty much went out of business.

So yeah legalizing a product, although less fun, can put the illegal operators out of business.

The less fun part is meaning that some attraction to illegal drugs may be because it's taboo and you like the idea of getting away with something.

I remember telling an old bootlegger that he'd have to start selling pot. He looked at me like I was from Mars.

What were T-Rex's like in real life?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by jayswin

What were T-Rex's like in real life?

He strikes me as more of a Stegosaurus man.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by jayswin

What were T-Rex's like in real life?

They liked to torture before killing and eating young whipper snappers like you.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Reaper

They're not dying from marijuana then. They're dying from whatever drug they're accidentally ingesting. Not from marijuana.

Exactly, that's why I'm saying it needs to be legal? I think you're agreeing with me.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by polak

Exactly, that's why I'm saying it needs to be legal? I think you're agreeing with me.

I'm being pedantic. I don't think Fentanyl should be legal for recreational use. Fentanyl kills; marijuana doesn't.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Reaper

I'm being pedantic. I don't think Fentanyl should be legal for recreational use. Fentanyl kills; marijuana doesn't.

Wait.

We should be clear about the parameters of this discussion to remove some doubt.

People are saying Fentanyl should be legal. My understanding is that it is legal but controlled.

Then the option of less control? So what, it should be available over the counter?

Recreational use should be pretty much out of the question. It is a pharmaceutical that is designed for a specific medical purpose. Any recreational properties or use harbour serious consequences and side-effects.

I dont see making this more easily available to whomever wants it as a solution to any given problem.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Locke

Wait.

We should be clear about the parameters of this discussion to remove some doubt.

People are saying Fentanyl should be legal. My understanding is that it is legal but controlled.

Then the option of less control? So what, it should be available over the counter?

Recreational use should be pretty much out of the question. It is a pharmaceutical that is designed for a specific medical purpose. Any recreational properties or use harbour serious consequences and side-effects.

I dont see making this more easily available to whomever wants it as a solution to any given problem.

Control works very differently when dealing with highly addictive substances like fentanyl. People aren't calculating the addiction factor into their control/freedom paradimn.

I'd agree, any less control and the problem gets worse not better.

[Street Pharmacist]

Polak - as your suggestion flies in the face of all current programs and evidence, do you have something to back this idea up? Education programs have been proven to be effective, as well as many other social and public health initiatives.

[afc wimbledon]

I should point out that the two most dangerous drugs we have that kill more people than all of the others combined are both legal, booze and smokes.
Legalizing drugs will not do a thing to reduce overdoses or deaths, there is no safe way to use most drugs, the only way to reduce deaths would be to reduce over all use and legalization won't do that.

I'm not saying we shouldn't legalize drugs but it won't reduce use or deaths.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I should point out that the two most dangerous drugs we have that kill more people than all of the others combined are both legal, booze and smokes.
Legalizing drugs will not do a thing to reduce overdoses or deaths, there is no safe way to use most drugs, the only way to reduce deaths would be to reduce over all use and legalization won't do that.

I'm not saying we shouldn't legalize drugs but it won't reduce use or deaths.

Not really a reasonable comparison. Opiate consumption compared to smokes and booze is far different. Apples/Oranges

[Locke]

Making Fentanyl legal and widely available without serious restriction is basically just proposing the re-institution of Eugenics.

Let the weak exterminate themselves. Except the determination of that particular 'weakness' is relative.

People who are predisposed to fentanyl, much like people who enjoy alcohol or cigarettes too much, are not completely useless to society.

We dont say: "Well, they like their (insert addiction here), so they're dead to us, time to launch them into the sun!"

And say what you will about alcohol and tabacco, at least they take their time and give you the opportunity to re-evaluate your decisions.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Not really a reasonable comparison. Opiate consumption compared to smokes and booze is far different. Apples/Oranges

Rubbish, they all share the same characteristic, there no safe use of any of them, it makes no difference to purity, in fact the purer the smack the more people die.
The only way to reduce deaths from any of them is reduce overall use, legalization is, frankly, likely to increase use.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Rubbish, they all share the same characteristic, there no safe use of any of them, it makes no difference to purity, in fact the purer the smack the more people die.
The only way to reduce deaths from any of them is reduce overall use, legalization is, frankly, likely to increase use.

One is considerably worse per user than another. Their impacts are different. If your only criteria for comparison is can they do harm, then you're right I guess. I just look at the impact of one compared to another and don't see the same damage

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

One is considerably worse per user than another. Their impacts are different. If your only criteria for comparison is can they do harm, then you're right I guess. I just look at the impact of one compared to another and don't see the same damage

Of course, smoking is far worse than Heroin, both in addictive nature and death rate (about a 50% user death rate) massively higher than the 20 or thirty percent for heroin) but we tolerate that.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Of course, smoking is far worse than Herion, both in addictive nature and death rate but we tolerate that.

Ok, are you purposely being obtuse? Cigarettes kill you over time. Heroin can kill you in seconds. Just like fentanyl. Everyone knows cigarettes are bad. There's a thread for that if you really feel the need to proselytize.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Ok, are you purposely being obtuse? Cigarettes kill you over time. Heroin can kill you in seconds. Just like fentanyl. Everyone knows cigarettes are bad. There's a thread for that if you really feel the need to proselytize.

We are talking about legalizing Heroin as being a solution to overdoses, I am pointing out it isn't, that's not being obtuse it's just a fact, any use of any heroin is just as dangerous in fact most of the overdoses we see from OxyContin are from legal supplies.

The idea that the only problem with heroin is its impurity is absurd, the idea that junkies will use legal drugs in a safe monitored environment and won't misjudge their dose after a stint in jail or on their birthday after a few drinks or any one of the many ways a junkie can misjudge their dope is asinine.
Legalizing heroin won't do a thing to stop overdoses because overdoses are caused by human error basically, heroin, all opiates, require medical training to be administered safely in a hospital, the chances of a FASD junkie who can barely read and has just got out of jail getting something wrong in his or her desperate need to fix as quickly as possible is almost guaranteed.

[4X4]

Hey, I agree with you. And now you've made your point without comparing heroin to cigarettes.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Ok, are you purposely being obtuse? Cigarettes kill you over time. Heroin can kill you in seconds. Just like fentanyl. Everyone knows cigarettes are bad. There's a thread for that if you really feel the need to proselytize.

As for me proselytizing I personally think that morally, it's no one business what anyone does to their own body, morally I think heroin, not wearing crash helmets and smoking should all be legal.