And I should say I have no problem with opposing views. I don't like being in an echo chamber. I have spent the last 6 years living in South Carolina and Oklahoma while being a super liberal atheist. It's not very fun being in social settings!
I feel your pain. Try living in Arizona and being surrounded by Sheriff Joe supporters. You would swear that you were in a different dimension where sanity didn't exist.
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But what I don't like is people that are argumentative just for the sake of being argumentative. People that think they are the smartest people on the internet and have to go out of their way to try and prove it. And people that distract from authentic discussion just to try and dig in and defend some arbitrary detail of an issue in an attempt to win internet points.
This is why Liberals lose. They think these trolls are just noise that will go away. This is wrong. These guys are the ones that keep the echo resonating. These are the guys that repeat a fallacy enough to the point where it becomes a truism. Ignorance, like a virus, will continue to spread if you don't isolate it and wait for the host to do its business in adapting to it or killing it. I've run into some very smart people who believe some very stupid things just because they've heard the story repeated and have been too lazy to verify its validity. Stupidity knows no bounds because we refuse to corral it in. If you don't expose these people as the frauds they are, what are you supposed to do, dobbles? To put it in the conservative vernacular, when you allow them to spread their tripe of fear and angst, the terrorists win!
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I think that people tend to ignore the importance of State level politics. If conservatives can control 2/3s of the states legislatures they can force a constitutional conference on some of these hot button social issues and make constitutional amendments that could seriously change the social landscape. It's a long way to go to hit that number, but it is possible and would be a great investment of dollars for the Kochs.
Republicans currently outright control 31 of 50 state legislatures, while Democrats control 12 and 7 are split with Democrats controlling one house and Republicans the other.
I included Nebraska in the Republican total. Even thought it is technically a unicameral 'nonpartisan' legislature, almost every member of the Unicameral is officially affiliated with a party, the breakdown being 1 Independent, 1 Libertarian, 12 Democrat, 35 Republican.
34 States is the number needed to a) call a Constitutional Convention and then b) Ratify an Amendment.
In theory, by controlling 34 State Legislatures, the Republican Party could call a Constitutional Convention and then change the US Constitution to any damn thing it pleased.
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This is why Liberals lose. They think these trolls are just noise that will go away. This is wrong. These guys are the ones that keep the echo resonating. These are the guys that repeat a fallacy enough to the point where it becomes a truism. Ignorance, like a virus, will continue to spread if you don't isolate it and wait for the host to do its business in adapting to it or killing it. I've run into some very smart people who believe some very stupid things just because they've heard the story repeated and have been too lazy to verify its validity. Stupidity knows no bounds because we refuse to corral it in.
If you don't expose these people as the frauds they are, what are you supposed to do, dobbles? To put it in the conservative vernacular, when you allow them to spread their tripe of fear and angst, the terrorists win!
Which Liberals do you speak of, Resla and Greenwald?
I have started to stop calling myself a liberal because of the regressive left, classical liberal fine, but we have such a serious issue within the left when dealing with real problems that get handled with kid gloves because how dare we offend.
Republicans currently outright control 31 of 50 state legislatures, while Democrats control 12 and 7 are split with Democrats controlling one house and Republicans the other.
I included Nebraska in the Republican total. Even thought it is technically a unicameral 'nonpartisan' legislature, almost every member of the Unicameral is officially affiliated with a party, the breakdown being 1 Independent, 1 Libertarian, 12 Democrat, 35 Republican.
34 States is the number needed to a) call a Constitutional Convention and then b) Ratify an Amendment.
In theory, by controlling 34 State Legislatures, the Republican Party could call a Constitutional Convention and then change the US Constitution to any damn thing it pleased.
So you see my point? I think this is where the Koch brothers can have the greatest impact on American democracy, and the average voter doesn't understand the long-term ramifications of this investment. They can cause radical change in the life of every American without doing it through the traditional seat of government at the federal level.
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Originally Posted by Thor
Which Liberals do you speak of, Resla and Greenwald?
I have started to stop calling myself a liberal because of the regressive left, classical liberal fine, but we have such a serious issue within the left when dealing with real problems that get handled with kid gloves because how dare we offend.
All liberals. Liberals have to stop trying to classify themselves and try to unify just like conservatives do. It is the division with in the left that allows the right to drive policy and politics in the negative way it does in the United States. If liberals had any brains and any balls it would be able to stand up to these clowns and drive through policy that makes a difference for every man woman and child in the United States. Instead we are left with a corporate talk receipt supported by both parties. The Liberals have no one to blame for this but themselves.when you let someone own airwaves and drive policy you get what you deserve.
So you see my point? I think this is where the Koch brothers can have the greatest impact on American democracy, and the average voter doesn't understand the long-term ramifications of this investment. They can cause radical change in the life of every American without doing it through the traditional seat of government at the federal level.
.
A constitutional convention is a pretty pie in the sky thing to worry about. Even if they get 2/3s of the state legislators, 3/4 of the state legislator's have to ratify it. Also, state level Republicans in more traditionally blue states don't often share the same ideologies as the Federal Republican party.
All liberals. Liberals have to stop trying to classify themselves and try to unify just like conservatives do. It is the division with in the left that allows the right to drive policy and politics in the negative way it does in the United States.
This is definitely an interesting point that really needs to be fleshed out. When you say that "liberals" need to unify - unify around what? What are the absolute crucial, central points of being a "liberal" that you think everyone should rally behind?
I ask because I think this is where you're going to run into trouble. No one is going to want to "unify" under a banner that doesn't reflect the political beliefs they think are the most important or the ethic that speaks to them. Instead, most of the "liberals" you're admonishing - and I think you mean the left; a huge swath of them aren't liberals - are instead going to do what most Bernie supporters are likely to do. On election day, they'll either hold their noses and vote for the person who comes closest to representing their world view (read: Hillary), or they'll refuse to vote for anyone who doesn't reflect their most cherished beliefs. And each time they get a chance, they'll mobilize in favour of getting a candidate to vote for who does reflect those beliefs.
Maybe you think that'll lead to more Republican victory but that seems like exactly how the system is supposed to work and it's hard to fault them for it.
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All liberals. Liberals have to stop trying to classify themselves and try to unify just like conservatives do.
Aren't we witnessing the unraveling of the conservative coalition?
If anything, small-l liberals across both parties need to stop letting the dogmatic ideologues at both extremes - the identity-politics left and the bible-thumping right - hijack their party policy, and propose moderate platforms that will be tolerable to Americans who are willing to accept compromise in the interests of actually getting stuff done.
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Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
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New Trump supporter approach to Khizr Kahn: He's a Muslim Brotherhood double agent who is trying to impose Sharia Law into the US (extra crazy thought, his pocket constitution was actually a Koran) and his appearance was also to help bring more Muslims to the US or get more in the US to convert. No, I'm not making that up, this is what they are now going with. I know we've danced around the whole "Is Trump racist" question, but I think it's pretty hard to deny the majority of his supporters are bigots.
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"Think I'm gonna be the scapegoat for the whole damn machine? Sheeee......."
Where are you seeing that? Just stupid. Like, on what basis can anyone say the guy has anything to do with the Muslim Brotherhood? Because he gave a speech?
I've seen the right wing reaction as frustrated, going "no, dammit, why are you giving away free points? That's not how you respond, THIS is what you should have said instead". E.g.
__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
Well here's long time Trump ally Roger Stone saying that, and some maturity right after that. His supporters took this and ran with it as you'd expect.
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"Think I'm gonna be the scapegoat for the whole damn machine? Sheeee......."
EDIT: So I actually looked at the underlying "evidence". His basis for tweeting that is a blog article written in conspiratorial fashion noting that Mr. Khan once wrote a paper about Sharia law and cited a guy as a contributor to that paper who is affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood. He also once lived in the UAE!
Also fun: the part where the author implicitly links Khan's dead son to Saudi double agents infiltrating the US military. Yeesh.
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Is it likely that Khan’s son was killed before his Islamist mission was accomplished? Only another type of investigation will determine that.
__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
Last edited by CorsiHockeyLeague; 08-01-2016 at 08:35 AM.
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New Trump supporter approach to Khizr Kahn: He's a Muslim Brotherhood double agent who is trying to impose Sharia Law into the US (extra crazy thought, his pocket constitution was actually a Koran) and his appearance was also to help bring more Muslims to the US or get more in the US to convert. No, I'm not making that up, this is what they are now going with. I know we've danced around the whole "Is Trump racist" question, but I think it's pretty hard to deny the majority of his supporters are bigots.
This is where the nuance acatully matters. (Not to derail this again). But to blankety state the majority of his supporters are biggies is dangerous and drives votes to him. You could be voting for trump because of his trade stance, his tax breaks for the wealthy, because you don't trust Hillary. None of that is rational either but it doesn't mean you are a big it by supporting.
I realalize you said majority, not all but paintbrushing supporters the same way leads to the sports team problem.
And the other point would be that most conservatives are offended by trumps remarks and it's clear the house republicans are Worried about it costing them votes. So using this as an issue to call supporters bigoted does not really add up.
^ I don't think it would drive votes to Trump by making that statement. All it would do is annoy people who are not bigoted, but those same people are willfully ignoring the obvious elephant in the room by maintaining their support for Trump.
I am completely comfortable in saying that if you support Trump you are either: A) a bigot, or B) comfortable enough with bigotry to be complicit with it.
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"You know, that's kinda why I came here, to show that I don't suck that much" ~ Devin Cooley, Professional Goaltender
Or c) as Sam Harris pointed out...that you are too infuriated by the idiocy if the regressive left and consider that as bad or worse than Trump's shenanigans
Aaaaanyhow, John McCain has come out and outright said Trump and his views do not represent the GOP. Trump has really been doubling down on attacking the family of a slain soldier and I imagine this will only serve to push more undecideds away from his special brand of hate fueled vitriol.
