The New American Politics thread

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Buster

"most people" are wrong on this one.

That's right. Keep fighting the good fight. I'm sure you're right and everyone else is wrong, you just have to keep educating us until we get it through our thick skulls.

[Buster]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

That's right. Keep fighting the good fight. I'm sure you're right and everyone else is wrong, you just have to keep educating us until we get it through our thick skulls.

Working on it.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

It's unfortunate that you feel that way. It seems that you view them as adversaries rather than fellow human beings with a different perspective.

I view Muslims as human beings with a "different perspective", if by that you mean belief system that has no basis in reality and demands much from its followers that is counterproductive, and in some applications depending on the interpretation and what prescriptions in the doctrine are deemed important by those applying it, downright horrifying, violent, oppressive and barbaric.

Listen, you have to understand that we all need something to make order out of the chaos of the universe. Very few people are comfortable just knowing that it's pure chaos and that most of what we do doesn't matter. But that existentialism is a rather new concept for the developed world, never mind the developing world, so patience is necessary in this regard, and change will come slowly. We are given a paradigm by our parents and community, and that's what helps us make sense of the world. Without that, we have to rely on an unknown reality, where we have to constantly shape our perspective as events and ideas challenge us. This is ideal, but most people are just trying to get through the day, and don't have the time, nor wherewithal, to go through that process. It's a shame, but it's reality, so they often revert to what they know to get them through life. Sometimes they change their mind, but it's usually on individual issues, not major overarching ideologies.

This is an awful argument that essentially boils down to, "the world is hard, not everyone can liberate their own minds from the shackles of superstition foisted on them by their communities, so rather than confronting those bad ideas just let them be with their ignorance". That's not only patronizing and condescending, because secularists in religious communities should be celebrated, supported and encouraged, but it's incredibly illiberal.

I think all I'm trying to say is that none of us have the monopoly on absolute truth, so being tolerant and having a discourse is valuable to maybe come to a new idea. You have thesis, and then you have the counter to it, the antithesis. Somewhere in between you have synthesis, and therein probably lies the truth.

Somewhere between "my thesis", which is that no one has ever suffered as a result of a society applying an excess of logic and rational thought, and the notion of flying horses and resurrections, is not "the truth". That is superstitious nonsense and should be open to criticism just as much as flat earthers, holocaust deniers, moon landing conspiracists or any other form of delusion.

Now, look. In spite of what I've said in this post, I'm not one to aggressively go after people who hold religious beliefs and tell them they're morons or try to convert them. But to suggest that there's something different or special about religious belief, as opposed to any other kind, simply because of how long it's been around and how entrenched it's become as a result, is backwards, anti-intellectual crap cozying up to the worst of right-wing religious demagogues. By putting these utterly ordinary beliefs in some mystical, revered category, they oppress dissidents, women, and unbelievers.

The deepest-held of beliefs, the ones that matter most to us, are just as subject to challenge as any other - in fact, if the beliefs are that important, it's more important to challenge them because it's more important that we're sure those beliefs are right. It's more important that we challenge them to understand why they're right and why we think they're important in the first place.

Religious beliefs consistently wilt under that pressure, and the theocrats who have always tried to prevent people from challenging dogma and asking these crucial questions have throughout our history as a species been arguably the greatest barrier to human progress.

That is why what you're arguing flies in the face of what I believe. That's why I think your perspective is bad for the human race, and why I think it absolutely must be rejected.

[Senator Clay Davis]

This speech is pretty similar to his intro speech. But it's not the closer so no one will remember since Obama is next.

[GGG]

This guy is frank underwoods VP

[calgarygeologist]

They should let Bill Clinton go back to his hotel. He looks utterly bored and doesn't really seem to care about what is going on tonight.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

They should let Bill Clinton go back to his hotel. He looks utterly bored and doesn't really seem to care about what is going on tonight.

He was pretty animated during Bloomberg.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

^ Corsi. I honestly think you are looking at Islam and extreme sects of other religions and putting every faith and every ideology in the same basket. It's a lot more nuanced than that and there is a very large spectrum of faith or spirituality that doesn't fit what you're talking about. Some faiths border on being a philosophy, rather than a faith in the divine.

You seem to think I'm condescending, but I'm just stating the reality of humanity. 99% of us need something to "fill in the gaps" of the unknown. Religion is just one way of filling that gap, and you should feel free to challenge someone, but don't expect them to change. The way we are raised is often too hardwired into our brains to make a sweeping change. It's like taking the red pill in the Matrix, and then not being able to cope with a new reality. If you know something about psychology, you know that we need frameworks in order to make sense of reality. Our brains have difficulty functioning properly without that framework.

Once you understand how human beings function and exist, I think you'll be a lot more forgiving for those who still CHOOSE to be religious, despite the evidence to the contrary.

[Senator Clay Davis]

The Trump impersonation is not going too well.

[bigtmac19]

This guy is not good at speech making.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I view Muslims as human beings with a "different perspective", if by that you mean belief system that has no basis in reality and demands much from its followers that is counterproductive, and in some applications depending on the interpretation and what prescriptions in the doctrine are deemed important by those applying it, downright horrifying, violent, oppressive and barbaric.

This is an awful argument that essentially boils down to, "the world is hard, not everyone can liberate their own minds from the shackles of superstition foisted on them by their communities, so rather than confronting those bad ideas just let them be with their ignorance". That's not only patronizing and condescending, because secularists in religious communities should be celebrated, supported and encouraged, but it's incredibly illiberal.


Somewhere between "my thesis", which is that no one has ever suffered as a result of a society applying an excess of logic and rational thought, and the notion of flying horses and resurrections, is not "the truth". That is superstitious nonsense and should be open to criticism just as much as flat earthers, holocaust deniers, moon landing conspiracists or any other form of delusion.

Now, look. In spite of what I've said in this post, I'm not one to aggressively go after people who hold religious beliefs and tell them they're morons or try to convert them. But to suggest that there's something different or special about religious belief, as opposed to any other kind, simply because of how long it's been around and how entrenched it's become as a result, is backwards, anti-intellectual crap cozying up to the worst of right-wing religious demagogues. By putting these utterly ordinary beliefs in some mystical, revered category, they oppress dissidents, women, and unbelievers.

The deepest-held of beliefs, the ones that matter most to us, are just as subject to challenge as any other - in fact, if the beliefs are that important, it's more important to challenge them because it's more important that we're sure those beliefs are right. It's more important that we challenge them to understand why they're right and why we think they're important in the first place.

Religious beliefs consistently wilt under that pressure, and the theocrats who have always tried to prevent people from challenging dogma and asking these crucial questions have throughout our history as a species been arguably the greatest barrier to human progress.

That is why what you're arguing flies in the face of what I believe. That's why I think your perspective is bad for the human race, and why I think it absolutely must be rejected.

I agree with a lot of what you've written here. However, I do think you take a rather simple view of religion. There is more to it than just dogma. It is also about ritual and community. Indeed, these two things are central to religion's unique place in society. I presume we all know people who are well educated, intelligent, believe in science and reason, yet still practice the rituals of their (almost always born-into) religious community because it makes them feel commected to their community. That has value.

I don't think that recognizing that makes me part of the "regressive left. It also doesn't preclude me from utterly rejecting mysoginist or homophobic religiousm dogma when it appears in our social or political discourse.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

^I think Makarov said it more succinctly than I did.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by bigtmac19

This guy is not good at speech making.

He isn't. The speech was strange. He ends the speech saying America must be united.. then lists off all Democratic president achievements.

[Buster]

Originally Posted by Makarov

I agree with a lot of what you've written here. However, I do think you take a rather simple view of religion. There is more to it than just dogma. It is also about ritual and community. Indeed, these two things are central to religion's unique place in society. I presume we all know people who are well educated, intelligent, believe in science and reason, yet still practice the rituals of their (almost always born-into) religious community because it makes them feel commected to their community. That has value.

I don't think that recognizing that makes me part of the "regressive left. It also doesn't preclude me from utterly rejecting mysoginist or homophobic religiousm dogma when it appears in our social or political discourse.

"Community" is not unique to religion. Any of the things you describe can happen in a secular environment. In fact, those things that are good about religion would probably be better in an environment where belief in a magic man in the sky isn't part of the process.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Buster

"Community" is not unique to religion. Any of the things you describe can happen in a secular environment. In fact, those things that are good about religion would probably be better in an environment where belief in a magic man in the sky isn't part of the process.

It's not about that. Religions are about trying to connect to the eternal nature of the universe while being temporary beings. Every single one of them share that trait. How they tell the story of that connection is vastly different, and some of them have been detrimental to human society at large. In those cases, they need to be amended, changed, or abolished if need be. However, you will never stop humanity's need to feel a connection with a universe that seems cold, dark, and uncaring.

[the_only_turek_fan]

I thought Biden has had the best speech so far from both conventions.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

^ Corsi. I honestly think you are looking at Islam and extreme sects of other religions and putting every faith and every ideology in the same basket.

Then your assumption about me is totally wrong.

In fact, this an error I think many atheists and agnostics make, that all religions are equal. I think specific beliefs have specific consequences, whether they're religious or otherwise. If you're a Muslim who thinks that God will reward you with paradise for blowing up a bus full of "infidels", that is a belief structure worth rejecting. If you're a Muslim who doesn't believe your faith demands that of you, then I don't need to convince you. If you're a Christian who thinks gays and adulterers will burn in hell and feel the need to tell that to children, that is a belief structure worth rejecting. If you're a Christian who doesn't believe that and thinks everyone should be loved without judgment, then I don't need to convince you of that point. But whether those bad beliefs are sourced in scripture or not makes no difference. They are bad beliefs. Protecting them because of their religious status has caused nothing but suffering and a drag on human progress.

You seem to think I'm condescending, but I'm just stating the reality of humanity. 99% of us need something to "fill in the gaps" of the unknown. Religion is just one way of filling that gap, and you should feel free to challenge someone, but don't expect them to change.

Saying, "don't expect them to change" is fine. I don't expect to convince you you're wrong by arguing with you on the internet. One of the biggest problems with human beings is that our brains are improperly evolved to the extent that being challenged creates defense mechanisms whereby you'll almost never see someone change their mind in real time. But that's a very different thing than to suggest that religious beliefs are a different sort of belief subject to special status that we should hold back from criticizing them the way we do other propositions because they're really important to people and ingrained in their identity.

Once you understand how human beings function and exist, I think you'll be a lot more forgiving for those who still CHOOSE to be religious, despite the evidence to the contrary.

I don't begrudge people who choose to be religious in spite of the evidence. I begrudge anyone who suggests that people should refrain from disagreeing with their religious beliefs for any reason whatsoever. I find your world view far, far more objectionable than those of the many nominal, peaceful Muslims who live in this country, for example. If they don't want to persecute gays or oppress women on the basis of scripture or anything of the like but simply want to worship privately and act morally without harming anyone, then I consider their version of their religion far less of a threat to society than the perspective you've just expressed here.

Originally Posted by Maajid Nawaz

No idea is above scrutiny. No people are beneath dignity.

Now let me watch this speech.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by the_only_turek_fan

I thought Biden has had the best speech so far from both conventions.

yeah he seemed like he was PISSED that Donald Trump was even being considered as a candidate.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by the_only_turek_fan

I thought Biden has had the best speech so far from both conventions.

Just wait. Barack "Master Orator" Obama is about to speak.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Buster

"Community" is not unique to religion. Any of the things you describe can happen in a secular environment. In fact, those things that are good about religion would probably be better in an environment where belief in a magic man in the sky isn't part of the process.

Totally agree.