Where do you see the Flames rebuild at now?

[djsFlames]

80% complete.

Still needed:
-A season or two of development for Bennett and Tkachuk.
-Another top 6 winger, either through trade or through organization
-Jankowski to step into NHL, complete the shutdown line
-Getting rid of Stajan, Bollig contracts which will be addition by subtraction (1 more season)
-Getting rid of Wideman's contract (1 more season)

Icing on top:
-One of the few promising D prospects to develop into quality NHLer
-Gillies developing into NHL caliber goalie

Regardless of what happens, in 2 seasons it should be 100% complete.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by the2bears

I think a rebuild is a lot more fluid an idea, across a range of stages, than a simply black or white question. I think we've all but moved out of the phase where we sell players for picks, but we're not yet in the "win now mode" where you sell picks for players.

As far as being at the cap, certainly we'll remain very close to the limit. But we also have some "bad" contracts coming off the books soon, and that's money that can be used in a variety of ways. So things are far from being done. I heard the same tune, I think, at the beginning of the year: what you see is what we have. Meanwhile our goalie situation has changed quite dramatically.

If the Flames are within 4 pts of a playoff spot at trading deadline I could easily see them trading for a rental player.

------------

the bad contracts coming off the books doesn't change the 45M for 7 players over the next 4 years. The 35M for the "support" players only goes so far....

This is Bennett's last year on ELC ... for the Flames to be successful this year he needs to have a very good season, one that at least gets him a Victor Rask contract 4Mx6 . Or is Bennett the line in the sand where the Flames force a bridge contract to save a Million or so for a couple of years.

[JJ1532]

Cap space has no indication of where a rebuild is. Look at the leafs, they took on short term bad contracts and traded long term bad contracts. They don't have much room and they are still very much rebuilding(there defensive line looks weak) imo.

For me, the roster changes are somewhat irrelevant. We made changes/improvements to last seasons roster and it didn't make much difference. We'll improve, hard not to given all our woes last season. But how much we improve and how long we improve for is mostly down to GG and his coaching staff. If they can find a style of play that suits the group we have but isn't a gung ho, defensively unstable style, we could improve in a big way. If the coaching staff find a way to get our PP/PK to improve, then we'll improve. If they can get consistent efforts out of most of the guys, then we'll improve.

But I'm not reading anything into the roster changes because if GG and the new coaches are a disaster behind the bench, then adding Tkachuk, Brouwer, Elliott etc, might count for very little.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

80% complete.

Still needed:
-A season or two of development for Bennett and Tkachuk.
-Another top 6 winger, either through trade or through organization
-Jankowski to step into NHL, complete the shutdown line
-Getting rid of Stajan, Bollig contracts which will be addition by subtraction (1 more season)
-Getting rid of Wideman's contract (1 more season)

Icing on top:
-One of the few promising D prospects to develop into quality NHLer
-Gillies developing into NHL caliber goalie

Regardless of what happens, in 2 seasons it should be 100% complete.

In 2 seasons Gio is 35 years old.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

In 2 seasons Gio is 35 years old.

In 2 seasons Dougie and Wotherspoon are 25 years old, Kylington is 21 years old, Hickey, AOM, and Andersson are 22 years old, Brodie is 27 years old, Kulak is 24 years old.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

We need guys like Engelland, Smid, Bollig off the books. We also need a top 6 forward, either via prospect or trade. We don't have room to go UFA.

I could foresee a cup-winning Flames roster being something like

Tkachuk-Bennett-(Top6F.. Mangiapane/Klimchuk/Shinkaruk?)
Gaudreau-Monahan-(Middle6F Prospect like Poirier or Pribyl...or CHiasson if he has an epiphany and has chemistry with those two)
Backlund-Jankowski-Frolik
Ferland-Stajan-Brouwer
Bouma/Hathaway

Giordano-Brodie
Jokipakka-Hamilton
Kulak-Wideman**
Wotherspoon


**Wideman on a vet min type deal. Or just toss Andersson there.

Gaudreau is never going to play on the 2nd line. I like Tkachuk a lot but he is never going to be the offensive talent Johhny is. Johnny has the skill level to challenge for Art Ross trophies.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Gaudreau is never going to play on the 2nd line. I like Tkachuk a lot but he is never going to be the offensive talent Johhny is. Johnny has the skill level to challenge for Art Ross trophies.

Um, the player who won the Art Ross this year played on a 2nd line, so uh.. yeah.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Um, the player who won the Art Ross this year played on a 2nd line, so uh.. yeah.

No, he really didn't, his line was used the most and was the 1st line for the Hawks. He averaged 20:25 a game.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Um, the player who won the Art Ross this year played on a 2nd line, so uh.. yeah.

Im really curious how you define "2nd line".

I mean...in my world when you are leading player in terms of time on ice (you know...actually playing) among all forwards you are solidly a 1st liner on your team, what in your world makes you a 2nd liner?

Who was the 1st line?

[Harry Lime]

I guess that first line, second line designation is decided by who the centres are. Malkin has been a second line centre for most of his career. Really doesn't mean as much as some people make it seem.

The same idea goes with our own need for a 'top six winger'. We just really need a player to click with either Monahan or Bennett, regardless of whether he's considered an elite talent.

I think that if one of Chaisson, Brouwer or Poirier starts to look like long term fit, the idea that the rebuild is much farther along becomes more palatable.

[doctajones428]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

In 2 seasons Gio is 35 years old.

...And? In 2 seasons Ferland is 26 years old.

Your posting habits make absolutely no sense. He didn't even mention Giordano.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

No, he really didn't, his line was used the most.

His line was also the most intact line. And Kane often got double-shifted, which says little about which line he was on. Nor does power play usage say much about which line he was on.

Originally Posted by transplant99

Im really curious how you define "2nd line".

1st line = scoring line getting tough matchups, will have your best overall centre (Bergeron / Kopitar / Toews / Crosby)

2nd line = scoring line getting offensive usage and controlled matchups, will have your second best overall centre (Krejci / Carter / Anisimov / Malkin)

2nd lines on good teams still have first line forwards like Spezza and Toffoli. Just as 3rd lines on good teams still have second line forwards like Backlund and Bonino. And 4th lines on good teams still have 3rd line forwards like Kruger. That's what makes them good teams. Tarasenko was a 70+ point second liner by usage. There's no shame in that fact.

In general Toews-Hossa has been the Hawks' scoring line that soaks up the tough matchups, while Kane has always been used strategically in a second line scoring role with scorers like Sharp and Panarin. Kane gets double-shifted onto the Toews line in pinch situations.

[Roof-Daddy]

Top 9 Forward Core

Gaudreau - Monahan - _________
________ - S Bennett - Brouwer
________ - Backlund - M. Frolik

If Bennett can take a big step this year then the Flames "pairs" for the top nine are looking good for next season and going forward. Really need some of the young players to step up and fill out the top 9 internally/cheaply throughout this season and next.

Tkachuk, Chiasson, Ferland, Pribyl, Shinkaruk, Poirier, Mangiapane, Jankowski, Bouma and Vey

Hopefully from that group of 10 players we can have three step up and fill out the top 3 lines adequately. The ones who lose out provide depth and/or fill out the 4th line with Stajan. Combine that with the already mentioned Bennett "step up" and our forward group looks to be solidly rebuilt from the 2012/13 season.

Top 4 D-Core

Giordano - Brodie
_______ - Hamilton


Flames have built a really solid top 3 D group for the time being. Definitely need Hamilton to continue to grow into a legitimate top pairing defender, and hopefully Gio proves to have longevity. If those two things happen the Flames should be able to build their D around that group for several years now, and they have a really nice stable of D prospects (IMO) to continue to fill it out moving forward.

Jokipakka, Wotherspoon, Kulak, Culkin, Kylington, Andersson, Hickey, Ollas-Mattsson

Lots of solid young D coming up to fill out the the 3-6 D slots for the foreseeable future IMO.

Goaltending

1. Elliot
2. Johnson

Massive upgrade in goaltending from the last few seasons, at least on paper. Hopefully these guys do the job they are capable of as it will make a big difference. Rebuild wise though it will be equally as interesting to watch Gillies, Rittich and McDonald duke it out in the minors this season. The Flames have a really solid stable of goaltending prospects, but that doesn't mean anything until at least one of them actually steps up and takes the reigns at the NHL level.

At least for now hopefully the Elliot/Johnson tandem can hold the fort and provide a minimum of average NHL goaltending.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

the bad contracts coming off the books doesn't change the 45M for 7 players over the next 4 years. The 35M for the "support" players only goes so far....

As I said I mostly agree. It was simply a point about the definition of a rebuild. To me the rebuild is over once the rebuild-era placeholder guys are off the roster.

I would like to point out that you have previously repeatedly talked about the importance of getting the best possible value from every contract, even the 3rd and 4th liners.

From that angle it seems a bit surprising to me that you now seem to disregard the significance of those contracts?

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

If the Flames are within 4 pts of a playoff spot at trading deadline I could easily see them trading for a rental player.

They very well could, but that would be a decision made *at that point*. Does something that might happen indicate their stage of the rebuild? Only in the sense that they re-evaluate what that stage is I think.

[Rick M.]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

I guess that first line, second line designation is decided by who the centres are. Malkin has been a second line centre for most of his career. Really doesn't mean as much as some people make it seem.

The same idea goes with our own need for a 'top six winger'. We just really need a player to click with either Monahan or Bennett, regardless of whether he's considered an elite talent.

I think that if one of Chaisson, Brouwer or Poirier starts to look like long term fit, the idea that the rebuild is much farther along becomes more palatable.

I think the idea of a 'fit' is crucial. Look at Carl Haggelin. He didn't fit in Anaheim but certainly did in Pittsburg. I'm hoping that Pribyl fits with either the Bennett or Monahan line. Who knows which line Brouwer will suit best.

[Enoch Root]

The Flames will be trying to win and move up in the standings. To me, that means they are no longer a rebuilding team.

IMO, they are in transition.

They have many solid core pieces, but most of them are still young and developing.

They still have a few 'filler' players that need to be replaced. And some of the guys that will replace them aren't quite ready to do so. Guys like Wideman, Stajan, Bollig, etc will be replaced over the course of the season (and maybe next season in Stajan's case).

They also have a new coach, which will require some getting used to.

Overall, I think the goal this year will be to continue to improve, and to continue to develop players. But at the same time, there will be a full on determination to win.

I think from the beginning of the rebuild, everything has pointed to 2017/18 as the year the Flames would emerge as young contenders. I think that is still right on track. This year, everything will be focused on getting there, as opposed to getting younger and getting new players.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

This is not a popular opinion, but I believe that the Flames org. sees Engelland in their long-term plans. Of course, his salary for his role is too high at present, but he is not a bad option for a #6/7 defenseman, and I could see him getting a lower-dollar extension next summer.

Like it or not, both management and coaches have consistently loved the guy.

I agree and while likely also unpopular, I think the organization feels the same about Stajan. I wouldn't be surprised if the Flames dont move him and when able to, extend him for cheaper to be another leadership guy for the team.

[jaikorven]

Originally Posted by activeStick

I agree and while likely also unpopular, I think the organization feels the same about Stajan. I wouldn't be surprised if the Flames dont move him and when able to, extend him for cheaper to be another leadership guy for the team.

Both could be viable for extension options if they show they are still able to keep up and if the dollars are lower...and at par with what they truly bring to the team.

[Rick M.]

Engelland will turn 35 before the end of the season. I can't see us extending him.