At least 84 killed in terrorist attack in Nice, France

[Buster]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

This your own bias, based on...?
Do you know or talk to any Muslims personally?

I try to avoid using anecdotal evidence, where possible. But I also try to avoid assumptions where possible.

You made the statement that most Muslims feel the same (equivalent?) outrage to the average secular westerner over such terrorist acts. I don't see evidence to support this claim. There is certainly compelling evidence to counter the claim.

The interesting data point here is the following at least to me:



This data is from 2009, Pew global Attitudes Survey. It's good data.

Do you think that 3 in 10 non-muslims in Britain would say that suicide bombings can be justified?

Half of the populations of Jordan, Eqgypt and Lebanon feel suicide bombings can be justified. Hell, 4 in 10 Muslims in FRANCE, think suicide bombings can be justified.

And yet, you think the prevalence of the justification of extremist actions is irrelevant because in the end most of these people don't have the cajones to actually do it?

I think these attitude difference are central to the problem.

[Buster]

Originally Posted by JD

I might not have "data" to support it, but as someone how lives and works amongst Muslims in a Muslim country, I can absolutely state that they do share our distaste and horror at these incidents.

I agree with some of what you're saying, but you're crossing into the territory of building an us vs. them paradigm. That's not going to help anything. We're all just humans and all want the same basic things.

Again, this is another assumption that is dangerous. I'm not building an us vs them argument at all.

I'm simply identifying observable facts. I suppose you could come to some different conclusion based on the data. However, we still are left with the uncomfortable reality that these acts are being conducted by Muslims.

[hwy19man]

Here is a photo link of the front end of the 18 wheeler.

https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/...f&x=1450&y=533

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Buster

I try to avoid using anecdotal evidence, where possible. But I also try to avoid assumptions where possible.

You made the statement that most Muslims feel the same (equivalent?) outrage to the average secular westerner over such terrorist acts. I don't see evidence to support this claim. There is certainly compelling evidence to counter the claim.

The interesting data point here is the following at least to me:



This data is from 2009, Pew global Attitudes Survey. It's good data.

Do you think that 3 in 10 non-muslims in Britain would say that suicide bombings can be justified?

Half of the populations of Jordan, Eqgypt and Lebanon feel suicide bombings can be justified. Hell, 4 in 10 Muslims in FRANCE, think suicide bombings can be justified.

And yet, you think the prevalence of the justification of extremist actions is irrelevant because in the end most of these people don't have the cajones to actually do it?

I think these attitude difference are central to the problem.

There is an unacceptably high % in that poll (although not majority) but what are you talking about with the not having cajones part? I'm unclear what you're referencing here. I think this link sheds more light on topic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim...ards_terrorism

I may be incorrect but are you also suggesting that you would rather base your bias towards a whole group on % from a limited poll from selected countries than actually talking to people (anecdotal).

[Da_Chief]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

They want the end of days. It's not really a matter of giving them anything

Everyone wants something. There's a reason why isis/leaders leaders are hiding and not on the front themselves. Their deaths only happen via drone strikes etc. Not by them blowing themselves up.

Enough innocent lives have been lost on all fronts. It is time to figure out what these guys want. It's no muslim domination, cuz what they preach is not Islam.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

sure, and that makes up what % of muslims?

generalizing to the point of saying Islam is 'bad' or that we need to stop all Muslims from immigrating is casting a mighty wide web that ends up further alienating some muslim youth...its a vicious cycle that plays into the hands of radical jihadis...

Islam is the "newest" bad idea because it's members are doing most of the killing, but make no mistake all organized religion has it's bad ideas. This stuff won't end until the world educates it's citizens that religious Gods are imaginary and fake.

[Reaper]

CBC news channel just pegged the dead at 80. I can't imagine how it would feel if something like this happened in Vancouver or Toronto on Canada day.

[crazy_eoj]

Originally Posted by T@T

Islam is the "newest" bad idea because it's members are doing most of the killing, but make no mistake all organized religion has it's bad ideas. This stuff won't end until the world educates it's citizens that religious Gods are imaginary and fake.

Ignoring, of course, that the largest mass murders in history are generally committed by communists/Marxists. Often with the excuse they needed to wipe out those nasty religious types. Your point makes no sense.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by T@T

Islam is the "newest" bad idea because it's members are doing most of the killing, but make no mistake all organized religion has it's bad ideas. This stuff won't end until the world educates it's citizens that religious Gods are imaginary and fake.

The most murderous regime the world has ever known described religion as "the opiate of the people".

Just saying. (As someone who doesn't have a God either)

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Well it's anecdotal but I consider my Muslim friends "moderate" and they basically do the same stuff as me except skip pork.

####, and here I was getting ready to lynch my Muslim brother-in-law and his entire family.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

more muslims have been killed by Isis than westerners, that's absolutely true...

we just have a more visceral reaction because we can identify with other western democracies...

An Isil truck bomb killed 200 in Bagdad just and the end of the Muslim holy month Ramandan, just as families were preparing to celebrate Eid, which marks the end of the fast.... So, the notion that its "us versus them" is a very superficial reading of what Isil is all about.

Now, i will say that France, much more than any western democracy, has been targeted...so there may be some underlying societal issues there...

but make no mistake, Isil goes after other muslims more often than western targets.

I agree with this. However, I think it is deeper than identifying with western democracies:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingroups_and_outgroups

[FireGilbert]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

The most murderous regime the world has ever known described religion as "the opiate of the people".

Just saying. (As someone who doesn't have a God either)

I'm an atheist who judges anyone who believes in an invisible man in the sky but get sick of hearing how the world would be a magical peaceful place if only religion was to disappear.

If everyone in the world was atheist we would still find ways to start wars and do horrible things to each other.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I bolded the part that is key. Why is for example an unemployed Muslim kid more pissed off then an unemployed Black kid in France. Why does the Muslim kid feel more aggrieved against and lashing out and being sucked in by the radical side.

Second generation Muslim immigrants in Europe feel alienated for a number of reasons:

Extremely high unemployment. Their parents are mostly poor and uneducated, and most countries in Europe have high labour costs, so the bottom of the ladder jobs young people latch onto in North America to get work experience aren't there.

Geographic isolation. They live in homogenous enclaves with other poor Muslim immigrants.

Social isolation. What do young people in France (and Germany, the UK, etc.) do a lot of? Drinking? Nope can't do that. Dope? Can't do that either. Drinking and dope and trying to get laid? Nope, nope, nope. The life of an average 21 year old native Frenchman must look at once enticing, inaccessible, and depraved to a young Muslim raised in a conservative household. In a lot of cases you end up with a volatile cocktail of resentment, alienation, and shame. Oh but look - here on the internet are some jihadists who are expert at recruiting just these sorts of angry young men, and they have all the answers right there in the Koran.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Second generation Muslim immigrants in Europe feel alienated for a number of reasons:

Extremely high unemployment. Their parents are mostly poor and uneducated, and most countries in Europe have high labour costs, so the bottom of the ladder jobs young people latch onto in North America to get work experience aren't there.

Geographic isolation. They live in homogenous enclaves with other poor Muslim immigrants.

Social isolation. What do young people in France (and Germany, the UK, etc.) do a lot of? Drinking? Nope can't do that. Dope? Can't do that either. Drinking and dope and trying to get laid? Nope, nope, nope. The life of an average 21 year old native Frenchman must look at once enticing, inaccessible, and scandalous to a young Muslim raised in a conservative household. In a lot of cases you end up with a volatile cocktail of resentment, alienation, and shame. Oh but look - here on the internet are some jihadists who are expert at recruiting just these sorts of angry young men, and they have all the answers right there in the Koran.

And yet here we are attempting our best to replicate that little number.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Second generation Muslim immigrants in Europe feel alienated for a number of reasons:

Extremely high unemployment. Their parents are mostly poor and uneducated, and most countries in Europe have high labour costs, so the bottom of the ladder jobs young people latch onto in North America to get work experience aren't there.

Geographic isolation. They live in homogenous enclaves with other poor Muslim immigrants.

Social isolation. What do young people in France (and Germany, the UK, etc.) do a lot of? Drinking? Nope can't do that. Dope? Can't do that either. Drinking and dope and trying to get laid? Nope, nope, nope. The life of an average 21 year old native Frenchman must look at once enticing, inaccessible, and depraved to a young Muslim raised in a conservative household. In a lot of cases you end up with a volatile cocktail of resentment, alienation, and shame. Oh but look - here on the internet are some jihadists who are expert at recruiting just these sorts of angry young men, and they have all the answers right there in the Koran.

According to this article there is also the issue of prejudice. Whatever term people use for intolerance, it seems the out group bias has some part according to this report.

http://america.aljazeera.com/article...migration.html

[T@T]

Originally Posted by FireGilbert

I'm an atheist who judges anyone who believes in an invisible man in the sky but get sick of hearing how the world would be a magical peaceful place if only religion was to disappear.

If everyone in the world was atheist we would still find ways to start wars and do horrible things to each other.

I would take my chances with people who believe in reality over those who believe in fantasy.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by T@T

I would take my chances with people who believe in reality over those who believe in fantasy.

Really? I'd take ISIL over the Soviet Union 1000x out of 1000. Islam doesn't have #### on Bolshevism.

[GreenLantern2814]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...tack?CMP=fb_gu

According to this article, France has SIX different intelligence agencies, all answering to different authorities.

If we're looking for a place to start, consolidating French intelligence might be worthwhile.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by T@T

I would take my chances with people who believe in reality over those who believe in fantasy.

You truly over estimate how many people truly believe in God and take gods word as literal.

I believe in God but doesn't mean I don't believe in reality. I don't take every word from God in the literal sense nor do I paint all atheists with the same brush if one of "you guys" does something immoral. Your anti-religion posts are getting tiresome. Hate religion all you want but when you are so diluted you think the world would instantly be better without religion then I really can't take anything you believe seriously.

There are so many factors, including religion for all of the hate and killing in the world today but there are other factors at play and if you can't see that then honestly nothing you say about religion is worth reading.

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

According to this article, France has SIX different intelligence agencies, all answering to different authorities.

To be fair, the US has even more:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...ence_Community

And even considering the major agencies, there's the CIA, NSA, NRO, NGA, DIA plus the FBI.