You may very well innocent, but Joe public witness may have mistakingly Id'd you as a suspect giving police reasonable grounds to detain you for investigation. You might not like it, you might be mad but you are legally obligated to cooperate. Might be smart to cooperate, explain your position and provide evidence to the show your innocence but that's just my 2 cents. You go keep fighting the man.
Lol huh? Keep fighting what? So you support police going off of random public tips with excessive force that haven't been properly investigated?
Your other posts were sensible...this is just nonsensical.
Sure it does. People seem to think it's physically possible to calmy control this guy without use of force. So what would you have done differently to control yourself
No one is advocating no force. They are advocating appropriate force. The punches thrown to the guys head after he was taken to the ground were not necessary.
It could be that all the people heard yelling in the video and the eye witness account linked earlier are all untrained and have no idea about police force...or they could be reasonable human beings that know punching a guy in the head when he's down probably isn't the safest thing to do.
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A few weeks after crashing head-first into the boards (denting his helmet and being unable to move for a little while) following a hit from behind by Bob Errey, the Calgary Flames player explains:
"I was like Christ, lying on my back, with my arms outstretched, crucified"
-- Frank Musil - Early January 1994
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And I don't think this thread shows who has been in a fist fight or had to subdue a resisting person and who hasn't.
I think it shows who is able to control themselves in those situations, and who isn't.
I implore to go on a ride along Pepsifree. It may give you a better perspective on the situations that face officers on a daily basis.
It seems that everyone is able now a days to judge a officers actions from a small video clip and "eye witness accounts" and say they should have made better decisions without perspective of the totality of the event.
I remain open to the possibility that they may have used slightly more force than necessary, but it doesn't look that way to me. But I will say that the officer appeared to be pulling his punches. So he was using the amount of force he deemed necessary to control the situation. The members don't seem to be out of control and swinging wildly, they were controlled strikes to gain pain compliance.
Regardless, 20 seconds of video doesn't give us anything but a snap shot of that part of the incident. How is it fair to only judge people by the actions during that 20 seconds, but not hold them accountable for the time surrounding?
I implore to go on a ride along Pepsifree. It may give you a better perspective on the situations that face officers on a daily basis.
It seems that everyone is able now a days to judge a officers actions from a small video clip and "eye witness accounts" and say they should have made better decisions without perspective of the totality of the event.
I remain open to the possibility that they may have used slightly more force than necessary, but it doesn't look that way to me. But I will say that the officer appeared to be pulling his punches. So he was using the amount of force he deemed necessary to control the situation. The members don't seem to be out of control and swinging wildly, they were controlled strikes to gain pain compliance.
Regardless, 20 seconds of video doesn't give us anything but a snap shot of that part of the incident. How is it fair to only judge people by the actions during that 20 seconds, but not hold them accountable for the time surrounding?
This is quickly becoming a zombie canard. The police sent the guy on his way with a traffic ticket after the incident. If anything more serious had occurred to justify the beating he would have been charged with it.
And yes, I'm sure police work is difficult. That doesn't mean they get to beat up people if things get tough. Justifiable force, no more.
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I implore to go on a ride along Pepsifree. It may give you a better perspective on the situations that face officers on a daily basis.
It seems that everyone is able now a days to judge a officers actions from a small video clip and "eye witness accounts" and say they should have made better decisions without perspective of the totality of the event.
I remain open to the possibility that they may have used slightly more force than necessary, but it doesn't look that way to me. But I will say that the officer appeared to be pulling his punches. So he was using the amount of force he deemed necessary to control the situation. The members don't seem to be out of control and swinging wildly, they were controlled strikes to gain pain compliance.
Regardless, 20 seconds of video doesn't give us anything but a snap shot of that part of the incident. How is it fair to only judge people by the actions during that 20 seconds, but not hold them accountable for the time surrounding?
I think both sides must acknowledge the inability to judge then. You can't say "well I'll give him the benefit of the doubt despite lack of evidence but you can't condemn due to lack of evidence".
We can only judge what we can see and while it doesn't tell the whole story, we really have no way of extrapolating the events prior or following the video.
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If people saw the police take down the guy that mugged me a few years ago, there would be absolute outrage. I guess people just don't like the fact that being a police officer is a physical job. Again, this type of thing is normal
I think both sides must acknowledge the inability to judge then. You can't say "well I'll give him the benefit of the doubt despite lack of evidence but you can't condemn due to lack of evidence".
We can only judge what we can see and while it doesn't tell the whole story, we really have no way of extrapolating the events prior or following the video.
No but some people speak from experience from having dealt with similar situations, where others appear to be speaking from their arse.
I think both sides must acknowledge the inability to judge then. You can't say "well I'll give him the benefit of the doubt despite lack of evidence but you can't condemn due to lack of evidence".
We can only judge what we can see and while it doesn't tell the whole story, we really have no way of extrapolating the events prior or following the video.
What else do we need to see outside the takedown itself? That's where the excessive force part comes into play.
__________________
A few weeks after crashing head-first into the boards (denting his helmet and being unable to move for a little while) following a hit from behind by Bob Errey, the Calgary Flames player explains:
"I was like Christ, lying on my back, with my arms outstretched, crucified"
-- Frank Musil - Early January 1994
You may very well innocent, but Joe public witness may have mistakingly Id'd you as a suspect giving police reasonable grounds to detain you for investigation. You might not like it, you might be mad but you are legally obligated to cooperate. Might be smart to cooperate, explain your position and provide evidence to the show your innocence but that's just my 2 cents. You go keep fighting the man.
Might be smart, but no, you are not "legally obligated to cooperate".
__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
If people saw the police take down the guy that mugged me a few years ago, there would be absolute outrage. I guess people just don't like the fact that being a police officer is a physical job. Again, this type of thing is normal
I understand and don't have a particular like or dislike about the fact police work is physical in nature. Sometimes people need to be restrained, and by force. But there's nothing normal about that video. If that's normal to you I suspect it has something to do with you being ok that people who are wrongdoers get their comeuppance. The fact you were mugged and required police intervention actually leads me to believe that's very much the case.
Also, where are people getting that the guy was innocent and just got a simple traffic violation? The ticket he got was a pretty serious one, you don't just mail a payment and be done with it. It's a mandatory court appearance, can involve thousands in fines and 6 months in jail.
He is innocent until proven guilty.
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"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
I understand and don't have a particular like or dislike about the fact police work is physical in nature. Sometimes people need to be restrained, and by force. But there's nothing normal about that video. If that's normal to you I suspect it has something to do with you being ok that people who are wrongdoers get their comeuppance. The fact you were mugged and required police intervention actually leads me to believe that's very much the case.
It's definitely normal. Maybe not to most people, but to the police it is. Most people find it disturbing, sure, but it happens every day. It's simply the forceful nature of trying to get people under control. People don't like to see it, and that's a reasonable opinion to have for sure. But like I've already said, humans are strong creatures. You can't just hold a guy down, you have to convince them to cooperate. That's important. It's almost physically impossible to get someone under control without their cooperation, and police have to convince them to cooperate. This is 3 on 1 and they still can't control him. Unfortunate truth is that sometimes force is necessary. It's brutal, for sure, but not police brutality.
It has nothing to do with anyone getting what they deserve, like you suggest I think. The real debate here is 'how much force is too much?' and that's a pretty loaded topic that's difficult to get into, and like you said, will vary depending on peoples experiences.
Pretty sure getting a 150 pound guy under control when you're 250 pounds and have 3 officers total is pretty easy.
Did you see how he literally grabbed him and threw him to the floor like he was a child? Your "humans are strong creatures" comment is just weird especially considering this human wasn't strong at all. He was about 50-60 years old and a small man.
Pretty sure getting a 150 pound guy under control when you're 250 pounds and have 3 officers total is pretty easy.
Did you see how he literally grabbed him and threw him to the floor like he was a child? Your "humans are strong creatures" comment is just weird especially considering this human wasn't strong at all. He was about 50-60 years old and a small man.
And someone that is 150 pounds and 60 is still strong. How many parents here have trouble holding onto a child that's having a temper tantrum? Now imagine that with a full grown man.
Also aren't these cops part of the gang suppression team? I've seen these guys at bars and they are all big men. I'd guess the average weight and height for these cops is 250 and 6'3 and they always go out in groups. You can't tell me you need to punch a small man in the head and knee him in the face and body to subdue him. If so I'd hate to see them against actual gangsters.
I would be curious to know what actual police training would call for in this situation. Are those head shots actually deemed an appropriate strategy in some situations? If these guys were in a training simulation would it play out the same way?
__________________
A few weeks after crashing head-first into the boards (denting his helmet and being unable to move for a little while) following a hit from behind by Bob Errey, the Calgary Flames player explains:
"I was like Christ, lying on my back, with my arms outstretched, crucified"
-- Frank Musil - Early January 1994
Here's a long conversation with a former LAPD officer, providing an experienced police perspective on the use of force. I found it highly interesting - I'm biased towards Sam's podcast in general, but it's not his usual fare - perhaps others will get some things out of it too. Even if you're generally on the side of "police force should be absolutely minimal", and / or usually find yourself reacting to events like this by thinking "that was excessive and the police are wrong", it's still important to at least hear where they're coming from.
__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
And someone that is 150 pounds and 60 is still strong. How many parents here have trouble holding onto a child that's having a temper tantrum? Now imagine that with a full grown man.
Nothing about this situation is easy.
Why are you speaking in hypotheticals when there is a video that clearly shows this man isn't strong and wasn't resisting arrest? The cop threw him to the ground like a rag doll. So he might be strong when it comes to someone his size/weight but a middle aged man who is barely 5'6 doesn't have some sort of super human strength that can fight off 3 men who look to be at least 250 pounds each.
