11 Dallas police officers shot by sniper at peaceful protest. 5 officers dead.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Regorium

This is a standard "I'm not racist, but..." statement.

Yes, noting something that is a common trait across humanity is exactly the same as trying to predicate a bigoted statement. Good work, detective.

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by taco.vidal

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/c...f4dd1bce3.html

And the cycle of violence will just get worse...

[hwy19man]

Bomb-making materials, weapons found at suspect's home
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/dallas-...ests-1.3669873

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by wittynickname

I think one of the biggest problems in the US is the attitude from many white people that Racism Is Over. Racism hasn't really changed all that much--and it isn't all that long ago that states wouldn't even allow interracial marriage. Both of my parents were alive in 1968--my father was out of high school already. They're in their mid-60s. The Civil Rights movement wasn't some ancient event--many of the people who fought for (and against) that revolution are still alive today.

We haven't really changed that dramatically in 50 years.

So besides the fact that 50 years ago interracial marriage was still outlawed in many states, housing was still segregated, only a small fraction of white Americans had ever gone to school or worked with a black American, very few blacks had attended college, and there were almost no black police officers, not really much has really changed.

So basically MLK and other Civil Rights campaigners didn't really achieve much. Is that about right?

[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

So besides the fact that 50 years ago interracial marriage was still outlawed in many states, housing was still segregated, only a small fraction of white Americans had ever gone to school or worked with a black American, very few blacks had attended college, and there were almost no black police officers, not really much has really changed.

So basically MLK and other Civil Rights campaigners didn't really achieve much. Is that about right?

That's not actually at all what the implication was. The implication is merely that racism is still alive and well, even if it's not in as blatant ways such as segregation.

Segregation still happens--though it's not by law, just circumstance and systemic oppression of one group rather than another. There are still "white" neighborhoods and "black" neighborhoods, even if they aren't legally kept that way. The system as it is keeps things that way.

There are "white" schools and "black" schools. There are suburbs and "inner cities."

Interracial couples are still regularly treated with disgust and disdain, even if they are legally allowed to marry. Hell, an innocent Cheerios commercial featuring a mixed race couple with a biracial child warranted uproar just three years ago.

MLK and the Civil Rights movement did a lot of wonderful, amazing things and their contributions and sacrifices cannot possibly be fully appreciated by myself, as a middle class white woman. But that doesn't change the fact that black people in this country are still far, far behind their white counterparts. And honestly, the SCOTUS gutted the voting rights act in recent years, which was one of the major gains of the Civil Rights movement, so to me it seems we're working backward, not forward.

The point is not that the Civil Rights movement wasn't effective, the point is that there is still a monumental amount that needs to be done with regards to race relations in the US, and for people to keep going back to 1968 as some kind of watermark that racism was defeated is BS.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

So besides the fact that 50 years ago interracial marriage was still outlawed in many states, housing was still segregated, only a small fraction of white Americans had ever gone to school or worked with a black American, very few blacks had attended college, and there were almost no black police officers, not really much has really changed.

So basically MLK and other Civil Rights campaigners didn't really achieve much. Is that about right?

Those activists made truly remarkable advances but IMO I think that while people have improved their capacity for tolerance and acceptance for what we see as our differences, equality in it's purest form should not require either of those things, true equality eliminates the preconception that there is anything that needs to tolerated or accepted it is simply ingrained in the fabric of our make up as people that we are all the same.

It's hard to put what I'm trying to say into words but I hope people can understand what I'm trying to get at.

Edit: And yes racism is still rampant in our society.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by wittynickname

That's not actually at all what the implication was. The implication is merely that racism is still alive and well, even if it's not in as blatant ways such as segregation.

Since racism is evident in every society we know of, and since humans are not perfectible, racism will always be alive and well (as will murder, abuse of children, theft, etc.). Progress can only be measured in degrees.

Originally Posted by wittynickname

The point is not that the Civil Rights movement wasn't effective, the point is that there is still a monumental amount that needs to be done with regards to race relations in the US, and for people to keep going back to 1968 as some kind of watermark that racism was defeated is BS.

Who has done that?

[Azure]

Not sure it is possible to completely get rid of racism.

The lower/middle class in America struggles with a lot of stuff. If you start eliminating those problems as best you can, lots of the 'social' issues start going away.

[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Since racism is evident in every society we know of, and since humans are not perfectible, racism will always be alive and well (as will murder, abuse of children, theft, etc.). Progress can only be measured in degrees.

Of course, and as I stated above, with the way the SCOTUS itself altered a main part of the Voting Rights Act, it allows states to regress to more racist policies. Voter ID laws, limited hours and days for voting, etc, all measures that predominantly will affect the voting abilities of poor and minority voters.

Also the US continues to disproportionately arrest and punish black people for drug crimes, which is another place where the US isn't really making progress.

The unemployment rate among black people in the US is double the unemployment rate of white people, and it's been shown repeatedly that all other things made equal, a "white-sounding" name will get a job offer before a "black-sounding" name will.

Black children are less likely to graduate high school than their white counterparts, and they are more likely to attend schools that are poorly funded and in poor upkeep.

Yes, racism will never be fully eradicated, but like other things (violence, assault, murder, various illnesses, etc) that will never fully be fixed, it doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss ways to limit the damage that these things inflict.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Who has done that?

Plenty of people in the US. All over my facebook feed, in the conversations I hear from people at work, from my parents' friends, etc.

"Stop talking about race, we already had the Civil Rights movement. We have a black president!!"

I'm not claiming that it's being said by anyone in this thread, but in America at large, the concept that racism is a past issue--that racism ended with the end of slavery or with the Civil Rights movement--is a pretty popular talking point.

[puffnstuff]

^^ add in the gerrymandering of districts into your first paragraph

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Since racism is evident in every society we know of, and since humans are not perfectible, racism will always be alive and well (as will murder, abuse of children, theft, etc.). Progress can only be measured in degrees.

I dunno, ritual human sacrifice was fairly common across various societies and we seem to have done a pretty good job of stamping that out. You love to talk about "Better Angels of Our Nature," and I seem to remember a portion of that book talking about the civilizing effect on norms. I think if we continue to treat racism and racists as the vile thing it is/they are we can get to the point where even if it still exists, it's relegated far enough to the fringe that the impact is neglible. However a big part of that has to be calling it out when we see it and not giving a pass to the more subtle and insidious forms because they lack intent.

[driveway]

The thing with racism is that it's more about systems than it is about people's thoughts or feelings.

Systems are simultaneously easier and harder to change than people's opinions.

[Flash Walken]

Ho hum, racism will always be there, nothing you can do...

What a cop out. We are talking about institutional racism.

One reason blacks are poorer than whites? More than a century worth of discriminatory banking policies and practices.

JPMorgan Chase & Co. has been accused of discriminatory practices by both the city of Miami and the city of Los Angeles after it was revealed that the nation’s largest bank pushed Black and Hispanic borrowers toward risky home loan products. These practices eventually resulted in a “foreclosure wave that hammered property values and city coffers,” The Los Angeles Times reported. The lawsuits also insisted that JPMorgan has a history of discriminatory practices and “has engaged in a continuous pattern and practice of mortgage discrimination” in both of these major cities since 2004. The lawsuit also slammed the bank for refusing to offer mortgage refinance or loan modifications to Black borrowers.

8 Major American Banks That Got Caught Discriminating Against Black People

The FBI released a report about infiltration of white supremacists into large American police forces after investigations revealed their presence in LA and Chicago among others. That report was released on 2006.

Institutional racism is still rampant in the united states. Much like how blacks began losing many of their hard fought rights in the 10-20 years after reconstruction, they have seen them clawed back in the 20 years following the civil rights movement. They are even taking the same form, restrictive voter identification legislation, gerrymandered distribution of minority populations to further limit their political influence, inconsistent application of justice from the state and federal level.

[FlamesAddiction]

I think by saying things aren't at least a little improved today sort of disrespects the ordeal it was 50 years ago. If everyone was carrying cameras and video recorders and had open access to information via the Internet 50 years ago, I shudder to think of the crimes and atrocities that would have been captured back then.


That is not to say things are great now, but today it is harder to hide.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Since racism is evident in every society we know of, and since humans are not perfectible, racism will always be alive and well (as will murder, abuse of children, theft, etc.). Progress can only be measured in degrees.

Racism will always be alive and well and should be at least acknowledged as the norm... interesting...

Yet you believe identity politics, a "siren call to tribalism" (a older, deeper, and more common part of humanity world wide), is folly, should be done away with, and exist simply because of a "backsliding" to a more communal state, defying liberal progress.

It's interesting that you find the inherent negativity of racism more acceptable as part of life than you do the potential positivity of evolutionary tribalism.

Malign and advance past tribalism.
Malign and accept the inevitability of racism.

Interesting.

Originally Posted by wittynickname

The point is not that the Civil Rights movement wasn't effective, the point is that there is still a monumental amount that needs to be done with regards to race relations in the US, and for people to keep going back to 1968 as some kind of watermark that racism was defeated is BS.

On another note, just wanted to say: really fantastic, well thought-out posts in this thread. Great to read, thanks.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Racism will always be alive and well and should be at least acknowledged as the norm... interesting...

Yet you believe identity politics, a "siren call to tribalism" (a older, deeper, and more common part of humanity world wide), is folly, should be done away with, and exist simply because of a "backsliding" to a more communal state, defying liberal progress.

It's interesting that you find the inherent negativity of racism more acceptable as part of life than you do the potential positivity of evolutionary tribalism.

Malign and advance past tribalism.
Malign and accept the inevitability of racism.

Interesting.




On another note, just wanted to say: really fantastic, well thought-out posts in this thread. Great to read, thanks.

Interesting...so very interesting.

Interesting.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Racism will always be alive and well and should be at least acknowledged as the norm... interesting...

Please don't twist my words. I've said it's a human universal. And like other negative human traits, it can never be eradicated, only reduced.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Yet you believe identity politics, a "siren call to tribalism" (a older, deeper, and more common part of humanity world wide), is folly, should be done away with, and exist simply because of a "backsliding" to a more communal state, defying liberal progress.

It's all of a kind. We're wired to put people into groups. Us. Them. People to be trusted. People to be feared. We've recognized some of these ways we group and 'Other' people is bad. But we absolutely revel in other ways (as sports fan, we know that better than most. But at least sports tribalism is relatively benign).

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It's interesting that you find the inherent negativity of racism more acceptable as part of life than you do the potential positivity of evolutionary tribalism.

Where did I say it was acceptable? I don't think murder is acceptable. But I do not believe humanity will ever eradicate murder, short of genetic manipulation.

Here's a post someone made on another forum that expresses frustration with tribalism, in the context of the Dallas shooting:

Can't wait for the inevitable "taking of sides" where one side pretends gunning down cops in the street is okay while the other side pretends gunning down black folks in traffic stops is okay.

Also can't wait for a complicit media to further both of these angles just for more TV ratings and page-clicks.

America: We're not so good at "real solutions" anymore. Just a lot of sound & fury while we beat the tribal drum for "our side" and making sure "the other side" is as insulted, marginalized, and beat down as possible. For us, that's enough. To hell with solving problems, just make sure "they" don't "win."

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Are you forgetting the 50 people murdered in Florida recently? What about the Ferguson riots just 2 years ago? Things are terrible in the US right now and only getting worse. Each of these murders is only raising tensions between white and black citizens.

They have done the research and the numbers are rather surprising.

Looking back 50 years, a Pew Research Center study found U.S. gun homicides rose in the 1960s, gained in the 1970s, peaked in the 1980s and the early 1990s, and then plunged and leveled out the past 20 years.

A Pew survey of Americans in March found 56% believed gun-related crime is higher than 20 years ago and only 12% said it's lower. The survey said 26% believed it stayed the same and 6% didn't know.

The new study found U.S. firearm homicides peaked in 1993 at 7.0 deaths per 100,000 people. But by 2010, the rate was 49% lower, and firearm-related violence -- assaults, robberies, sex crimes -- was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993, the study found.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/08/us/study-gun-homicide/

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by transplant99

They have done the research and the numbers are rather surprising.




http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/08/us/study-gun-homicide/

It kind of goes back to what I was saying about the information age. Back in the 60s, 70s, and 80s; when people were murdered outside of the general area that someone lived in, there was a better than good chance that they would never hear about it. It "might" make it to page 6 of a small town local newspaper if at all. Today, we have easy access to news, pictures and video that we are bombarded with more information. It feels like more is going on, but it isn't necessarily the reality. Just like with race crimes. I think anyone who doesn't think race relations and racial class mobility were worse 50 years ago, needs to open up some history books.

Having said that, gun violence has declined in general, but so has gun ownership. Maybe there is a connection? It also seems like the type of gun violence (domestic terrorist attacks and mass shootings) have gone up, as have gun crimes in specific cities.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Here's a post someone made on another forum that expresses frustration with tribalism, in the context of the Dallas shooting:

By "acceptable" I mean, you have accepted it as inevitable and an unchangeable part of humanity. You have resigned yourself to it, but not to tribalism.

I think the post you quoted is fallacious. It's funny how much it sounds like you, though. It ends with an accurate description of current American tribalism, but begins with a nonsense nihilistic version. It doesn't take nuance or freedom of thought into account.

I would wager the vast majority of BLM are not "for" killing police, as the vast majority of All Lives Matter types are not "for" killing black Americans. Most people that you accuse of resorting to the "tribalism" of identity politics of black/white, gay/straight, etc. are completely capable and more often enact rational thought inspired by tribal lines than thought formed exclusively by tribal lines.

Tribalism is an unchangeable part of human nature. It will always exist, greater so than racism. In fact, tribalism is the very thing that BREEDS racism, so my point is that you can't possibly point to identity politics as tribalism and say "we should stop that" and then point to racism and say "we can't stop that."

The two opinions are entirely logically inconsistent with each other.