Canada Post likely will be locked out/on strike - July 2

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by squiggs96

The neat part was that my post was intentionally humorous. Your posts in this thread achieve the same result, albeit unintentionally. My favourite one was when you said people crossing a picket line were the worst scum on earth, even worse than child rapists.

A giant problem people have with you in this thread, is your inability to listen, see, and/or respect any view that is not aligned with your own view. You don't debate, or exchange ideas with others, you just tell them they are wrong. Maybe this is the same line of thinking that has led to the impending Canada Post work stoppage.

So you don't agree with what you say is the unintentional result of his approach in this thread and you react by choosing to address it by doing what you yourself say is the exact same thing only intentional?

[The Yen Man]

Man, am I ever glad I don't work for a company that has a union. I'd argue union reps (and to clarify, NOT union members) are the scum of the earth. They take advantage of their members, whip them into a frenzy, and screw them over in the long run, just so they can continue to stay relevant and get paid. They're no better than those telemarketing evangelists.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

Man, am I ever glad I don't work for a company that has a union. I'd argue union reps (and to clarify, NOT union members) are the scum of the earth. They take advantage of their members, whip them into a frenzy, and screw them over in the long run, just so they can continue to stay relevant and get paid. They're no better than those telemarketing evangelists.

Why wouldn't you just get rid of your agents if they represented their interests over yours? Or are you the type that buys everything a telemarketer is selling because it's easier than standing up for yourself?

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Why wouldn't you just get rid of your agents if they represented their interests over yours? Or are you the type that buys everything a telemarketer is selling because it's easier than standing up for yourself?

I like to represent and negotiate myself. Like Ovechkin.

Call me the Ovechkin of the business world

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I like to represent and negotiate myself. Like Ovechkin.

Call me the Ovechkin of the business world

I'm happy for you if you're happy Alex.

But are you really representing yourself if you are member of the NHLPA?

Edit: just looked into it and Ovi's not even a player rep lol

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by squiggs96

The neat part was that my post was intentionally humorous. Your posts in this thread achieve the same result, albeit unintentionally. My favourite one was when you said people crossing a picket line were the worst scum on earth, even worse than child rapists.

A giant problem people have with you in this thread, is your inability to listen, see, and/or respect any view that is not aligned with your own view. You don't debate, or exchange ideas with others, you just tell them they are wrong. Maybe this is the same line of thinking that has led to the impending Canada Post work stoppage.

I said those who cross picket lines were worse than child rapists? news to me. (I made a very general statement of them being the worst people on Earth.. if you are so daft to honestly take that as they're worse than people who commit murder and treason thats your fault for being stupid)

I'm not going to try very hard to change anyones opinion here because it's so firmly entrenched I might as well go to a church and ask people to consider being an atheist. Alberta is basically USA north, unusually conservative from the rest of Canada, and union members here are a paltry % of the work force. I honesty find some of the naive comments here unintentionally hilarious too, but I guess our own world views have formed those opinions haven't they? My personal favourite is one posts suggestion that the money just isn't out there to pay people decent pages without fear of jobs going over seas. Wages have been stagnated for decades and that's already happening. CEO pay has skyrocketed. The only way to protect the middle class is when workers have power and bargain together, otherwise, good paying jobs aren't going be to good paying in the long run in any scenario.

What I find sad and in no way funny is how ultra conservative folks and even liberal minded people have been convinced by politicians and big businesses that things like a higher minimum wage and strong unions are a death knell for jobs. Almost perfect timing on Friday Bill Maher had a great rant about how incredible California is doing now since it got rid of ####ty republican governments and ideas and increased taxes under democratic governance, and compared that to states who went the other way. Huge deficits and cuts occurring in these reds states and the economies are catching on fire so rich people can have a little extra. Meanwhile California has a surplus again.

I'm probably guilty AF for not trying anymore to add more of an argument or explanation for my opinions. Fine, I own that. My bad. But I don't see the point because frankly people come to the table with a made up mind and aren't willing to budge.

[Swarly]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

Man, am I ever glad I don't work for a company that has a union. I'd argue union reps (and to clarify, NOT union members) are the scum of the earth. They take advantage of their members, whip them into a frenzy, and screw them over in the long run, just so they can continue to stay relevant and get paid. They're no better than those telemarketing evangelists.

Any time I've been forced to be in a union its amazing to me the people that are in charge, the union reps are the guys who have learned the system because they have been disciplined by it the most, A.K.A. guys who should have been fired years ago and would have no chance of making it in a non-union environment. Unions protect the weakest workers and punish the best. so glad that union garbage is far behind me.

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

Man, am I ever glad I don't work for a company that has a union. I'd argue union reps (and to clarify, NOT union members) are the scum of the earth. They take advantage of their members, whip them into a frenzy, and screw them over in the long run, just so they can continue to stay relevant and get paid. They're no better than those telemarketing evangelists.

Can you provide any examples of this, or, are they all things you've read online?

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Swarly

Any time I've been forced to be in a union its amazing to me the people that are in charge, the union reps are the guys who have learned the system because they have been disciplined by it the most, A.K.A. guys who should have been fired years ago and would have no chance of making it in a non-union environment. Unions protect the weakest workers and punish the best. so glad that union garbage is far behind me.

I'm just curious, how were you forced to be in a union?

Also how does a union punish the "best"?

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by Swarly

Any time I've been forced to be in a union its amazing to me the people that are in charge, the union reps are the guys who have learned the system because they have been disciplined by it the most, A.K.A. guys who should have been fired years ago and would have no chance of making it in a non-union environment. Unions protect the weakest workers and punish the best. so glad that union garbage is far behind me.

This is not my experience. In my company and in my union the reps typically have no discipline or very minor things like one write up.

You often DO see a lot of shop stewards on the floor with discipline history, but they're shops because they often see first hand how the company is very heavy handed and want to help other members know and protect their rights.

[Swarly]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

I'm just curious, how were you forced to be in a union?

Also how does a union punish the "best"?

forced as in you have to join the union to work here, so I did. didn't fully know then what a farce it was or I never would have worked there.

punishes good workers by holding them down to lower standards. Work ethic or skill makes no difference, if there is an opening for a higher level job with more money does it go to the guy who is better? no, it goes to the dunce who happened to start 1 week before you cuz seniority. doesn't matter that this dunce misses work all the time and has the skill of a door stop.

What finally soured me on unions the most was a friend of mine (female) was sexually harassed at work. She reported it, there were witnesses the whole deal, there was never any question he did it, he even admitted it. But here comes the union to save the day! they fought and he got to keep his job due to the fact he wasn't aware he couldn't do that or some bull. Where was my friends union representation? why didn't they fight for her to get that guy fired? she paid the same dues as he did.

[Swarly]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

This is not my experience. In my company and in my union the reps typically have no discipline or very minor things like one write up.

You often DO see a lot of shop stewards on the floor with discipline history, but they're shops because they often see first hand how the company is very heavy handed and want to help other members know and protect their rights.

well if more unions were like yours I probably wouldn't have a problem with them. all the ones I've either worked in or had friends in have run more like mine The shop stewards I knew where all one group of buddies who all got into the job and would laugh about how untouchable they were.


I think of Unions like Communism, great in theory, but in practice nearly all corrupt.

[White Out 403]

What was the harassment? How did the union fight to keep his job? If he wasn't fired to begin with, what did the union do to save it? Management doesn't give a crap what unions saying during the investigation process or disciplinary period. If he wasn't fired, the union didn't save his job.

If he was fired and they got his job back, the company clearly terminated without just cause because they would either settle on him returning or an arbitrator would agree it wasn't just.

Originally Posted by Swarly

well if more unions were like yours I probably wouldn't have a problem with them. all the ones I've either worked in or had friends in have run more like mine The shop stewards I knew where all one group of buddies who all got into the job and would laugh about how untouchable they were.

I honestly don't know how to respond to this. It's so far from the normal and doesn't even make sense. Shop Stewards aren't "untouchable". If anything they paint a target on themselves to management for being advocates. Shop Stewards and union delegates also spend hours and hours of their own time volunteering putting together grievances, taking calls from members, and setting up unit or local meetings for their members.

If what your saying is true you belonged to a terrible union with horrible shop stewards. That doesn't fit the experience I've had but just like there's terrible managers and companies I would agree there's bound to be bad unions.

[Swarly]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

What was the harassment? How did the union fight to keep his job? If he wasn't fired to begin with, what did the union do to save it? Management doesn't give a crap what unions saying during the investigation process or disciplinary period. If he wasn't fired, the union didn't save his job.

If he was fired and they got his job back, the company clearly terminated without just cause because they would either settle on him returning or an arbitrator would agree it wasn't just.



I honestly don't know how to respond to this. It's so far from the normal and doesn't even make sense. Shop Stewards aren't "untouchable". If anything they paint a target on themselves to management for being advocates. Shop Stewards and union delegates also spend hours and hours of their own time volunteering putting together grievances, taking calls from members, and setting up unit or local meetings for their members.

If what your saying is true you belonged to a terrible union with horrible shop stewards. That doesn't fit the experience I've had but just like there's terrible managers and companies I would agree there's bound to be bad unions.

well its the internet so I'm not going into detail and I don't personally know them all. But fact remains that guy without a union would be fired justly as he should have been, with a union there are extra hoops to jump and he walked away with a 3 day suspension or something.

Sounds like you may be in one of the good unions then. Our shop stewards didnt volunteer their time, they did most of that stuff during the day on site. most unions are scum, you're in one of the few but the majority ruin it for everyone.

[V]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Also how does a union punish the "best"?

The union will never punish the best, but the framework will. Anyone that produces too many widgets is bound to make his brothers look bad, and that gets shut down pretty quickly by said brothers. You work to the lowest common denominator or you're ostracized. I've worked with 5 different unions in Alberta. Based on what I've heard, Alberta can't touch BC when it comes to militant poorly functioning unions.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Swarly

forced as in you have to join the union to work here, so I did. didn't fully know then what a farce it was or I never would have worked there.

punishes good workers by holding them down to lower standards. Work ethic or skill makes no difference, if there is an opening for a higher level job with more money does it go to the guy who is better? no, it goes to the dunce who happened to start 1 week before you cuz seniority. doesn't matter that this dunce misses work all the time and has the skill of a door stop.

What finally soured me on unions the most was a friend of mine (female) was sexually harassed at work. She reported it, there were witnesses the whole deal, there was never any question he did it, he even admitted it. But here comes the union to save the day! they fought and he got to keep his job due to the fact he wasn't aware he couldn't do that or some bull. Where was my friends union representation? why didn't they fight for her to get that guy fired? she paid the same dues as he did.

So you were told you were joining a union and willfully agreed to work there? At what point was the ball not in your court?

So in a non-union environment would you be happy if the dunce who happens to be buddies with the boss gets the job over you even though you were more deserving and had been there longer? If a dunce is employed by the company the onus is on them to identify that during their probation period, which typically range anywhere between 3-24 months, and not keep them employed if they can't do the job. If they can do it, and are obviously meeting their expectations since they would have grounds to fire them if they weren't, then the promotions go to the employee who is meeting the expectation and has the most years of service. It takes out the possibility of discrimination.

As for your co-worker, I honestly feel terrible that she had to go through that. People always say there are always two sides to every story and the truth is usually somewhere in the middle, that is not always the case though, and if she was treated unfairly or misrepresented I would advise her to file a duty to fair representation complaint and a human rights complaint against both her union and her employer. Hold them accountable because they are just as guilty as the guy who she says did what he did.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

I'm happy for you if you're happy Alex.

But are you really representing yourself if you are member of the NHLPA?

Edit: just looked into it and Ovi's not even a player rep lol

I meant Ovechkin chose to represent himself when negotiating with his employer for his salary and working conditions. He didn't use an agent.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

So you were told you were joining a union and willfully agreed to work there? At what point was the ball not in your court?

Is this a serious question? This is like people in political debates saying "if you don't like it, go live in another country". It's not like jobs you'd want to do are everywhere.

So in a non-union environment would you be happy if the dunce who happens to be buddies with the boss gets the job over you even though you were more deserving and had been there longer?

This doesn't actually happen in companies that stick around for very long. If you don't promote the most qualified person, you're doing your own company a disservice. Of course, that's your call if it's your company. That's what you seem to be missing in a lot of this; if the dumb decision is made by the person who owns the shop, that's inherently different from some other entity forcing a dumb decision on them.

I really don't want to get sucked into this, because it's basically about as toxic a conversation as an Israel / Palestine debate... but there are definitely some interesting posts being made.

[peter12]

My job is mostly professionally staffed, but we still have the odd union plug lying around. I like them. They were smart enough to figure out that if you select your environment with care, and work really hard at the beginning, you can basically coast through the rest of your life.

I am constantly frustrated by their complaining, and incompetency, but I also really admire them. That said, this is a mixed environment in a rapidly changing field.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if we were all unionized. Probably something totally similar. The union vs private sector is all about changing social landscapes. Ideologically, it is a bit of a wash for me.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Call me the Ovechkin of the business world

So you can never close the deal? Don't hate me...