CalgaryNEXT Discussion pt. 2

[powderjunkie]

Where they've plopped the arenas in WV aren't even very close to a train station. Sunalta would be the closest one - I hope everyone is stoked about lineups down the stairs/escalators! I've never actually gotten off on that station...not sure about the design?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tyler]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Where they've plopped the arenas in WV aren't even very close to a train station. Sunalta would be the closest one - I hope everyone is stoked about lineups down the stairs/escalators! I've never actually gotten off on that station...not sure about the design?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sunalta looks to be connected to CalgaryNext via a walking bridge

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Tyler

Sunalta looks to be connected to CalgaryNext via a walking bridge

Thats 2 people wide.

[Zarley]

Originally Posted by rayne008

What are the number of issues why railtown in NG? Genuinely interested.

(I know CSEC does not own the land, which obviously is a huge hurdle in itself)

The main reason would be that the site is readily developable and Remington isn't motivated to sell. They would require a significant premium to sell the site as it is a fantastic location for a master planned community.

Also, I can't say much in detail but there are challenges related to planned future infrastructure in the area: namely high-speed rail and a green line station.

[Zarley]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

How is that very different than the city giving the land to CalgaryNEXT for free. "Not selling" = "buying" from a cash flow perspective. Now, I don't know what the two values are and yes creosote negatively impacts the WV land value, but I'm willing to bet that when you consider the above plus an assumed relatively lower infrastructure costs on Remington that $50M-$80M could be made up pretty quickly.

It just feels...more right.

(obviously lots of gut feels and assumptions in there but directionally it feels right...)

The difference is that the WV land has negative value. The City would be better off giving it away but nobody in the private sector is going to take on that environmental liability.To build in railtown would mean allocating public funds to take out a site that can and will be developed by the private sector, while doing nothing to solve the West Village problems. Keep in mind that the infrastructure and cleanup costs will be borne by the public sector eventually - they can essentially be viewed as sunk costs in this case.

In my opinion, it makes sense to allocate that public investment towards the WV - you solve the new stadium issue while cleaning up contamination for likely the same cost as the land acquisition in railtown, while still allowing an opportunity for private sector development to occur in railtown.

I agree that it would be optimal to see entertainment venues located along a 4 Street SE corridor leading from the East Village to the Stampede grounds, but it might make sense to spread things out as well. The west end of downtown is already devoid of vibrancy - I'm not sure it makes sense to add another vertical suburb in the WV.

[Tyler]

Originally Posted by Zarley

The difference is that the WV land has negative value. The City would be better off giving it away but nobody in the private sector is going to take on that environmental liability

You do know that The City has an entire West Village Redevelopment Plan, right?

It's not just some barren and polluted land they're never going to touch. The focus right now is on the East Village, and for obvious reasons.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Tyler

You do know that The City has an entire West Village Redevelopment Plan, right?

It's not just some barren and polluted land they're never going to touch. The focus right now is on the East Village, and for obvious reasons.

You do know that WV has been vacant for almost half a century and has seen multiple development proposals fall through because of remediation costs? This is a long standing problem that will continue to be a long standing problem without a major project to drive the remediation effort. As it sits, it is a barren polluted piece of land that they are ever going to touch, because the costs to r mediate keep getting more and more costly.

[Zarley]

Originally Posted by Tyler

You do know that The City has an entire West Village Redevelopment Plan, right?

It's not just some barren and polluted land they're never going to touch. The focus right now is on the East Village, and for obvious reasons.

Yes I'm well aware of this, thank you. The West Village ARP is a good plan although I'd like to see a greater focus on commercial use at the centre of the district. I particularly like the promenade concept. There's nothing that precludes the location of an arena complex in the district - it's only a preliminary plan after all.

Anyway, what does the existence of an ARP have to do with my post?

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by New Era

This is a long standing problem that will continue to be a long standing problem without a major project to drive the remediation effort. As it sits, it is a barren polluted piece of land that they are ever going to touch, because the costs to r mediate keep getting more and more costly.

I still think that "major project" that is the catalyst for change in WV will be the Olympics, where the City will be able to leverage some provincial and federal funding. With or without a stadium, it would be the perfect spot for an Olympic Village that can then be sold off as condos post-games.

The Olympics is also the only way I see the Flames getting their wish in terms of building in the WV unless they really pony up some serious cash. The only problem is that the 2026 winner will only be selected in 2019. Can the Flames wait that long? Or are they better off moving to Plan B now.

[Frequitude]

Good points, Zarley. Thank you. Has me reconsidering my staunch eastern arena bias from a city planning perspective. I like that you went there by the way - city planning first.

In my opinion what matters here, in order, is:
1. The best arena/stadium location and design for the city
2. The best financing arrangement for the city, recognizing that yes I think some public dollars should go to it (especially for a CFL stadium)
3. The best arena design and schedule

All three are important, one is definitely last for me. And I'm a massive Flames fan.

[Zarley]

Originally Posted by Table 5

I still think that "major project" that is the catalyst for change in WV will be the Olympics, where the City will be able to leverage some provincial and federal funding. With or without a stadium, it would be the perfect spot for an Olympic Village that can then be sold off as condos post-games.

The Olympics is also the only way I see the Flames getting their wish in terms of building in the WV. The only problem is that the 2026 winner will only be selected in 2019. Can the Flames wait that long? Or are they better off moving to Plan B now.

Completely agreed. I'm not affiliated with the project nor do I have any inside information, but I don't see a need to have shovels in the ground before 2019. McMahon is a dump, but it has been for years, and the Saddledome is still serviceable. There is also significant precedent for federal funding towards the cleanup of brownfield sites (Granville Island, Oliver Village in Edmonton).

The Olympic Village area in Vancouver is really hitting its stride, something similar would be great for the VW.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Table 5

I still think that "major project" that is the catalyst for change in WV will be the Olympics, where the City will be able to leverage some provincial and federal funding. With or without a stadium, it would be the perfect spot for an Olympic Village that can then be sold off as condos post-games.

The Olympics is also the only way I see the Flames getting their wish in terms of building in the WV unless they really pony up some serious cash. The only problem is that the 2026 winner will only be selected in 2019. Can the Flames wait that long? Or are they better off moving to Plan B now.

That is a distinct possibility. Would definitely get the fed support it would need and get the site remediated on the fed dime. Good suggestion. I think the Flames could wait that long. I think they are in for the right facility, not a facility right now.

[Zarley]

It really is an interesting discussion that brings out a fair bit of emotion in people. I just hope that the City of Calgary can cast aside biases and weigh all of the options appropriately. City bureaucrats don't like being dictated to by the private sector and I think many City planners are viewing CalgaryNext with this bias rather than fully considering the merits of the project. Regardless, it's an important project for the city and I hope that all parties can work together towards a fantastic solution.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Zarley

The difference is that the WV land has negative value. The City would be better off giving it away but nobody in the private sector is going to take on that environmental liability.To build in railtown would mean allocating public funds to take out a site that can and will be developed by the private sector, while doing nothing to solve the West Village problems. Keep in mind that the infrastructure and cleanup costs will be borne by the public sector eventually - they can essentially be viewed as sunk costs in this case.

Negative value at present, but the future value is huge. The good ole' spend money to make money dilemma. I do agree that most of the costs will be public and inevitable, and I would like them to get on with it ASAP. That said, federal, provincial and polluter pay should offset most of the cost.

Originally Posted by New Era

You do know that WV has been vacant for almost half a century and has seen multiple development proposals fall through because of remediation costs? This is a long standing problem that will continue to be a long standing problem without a major project to drive the remediation effort. As it sits, it is a barren polluted piece of land that they are ever going to touch, because the costs to r mediate keep getting more and more costly.

It isn't exactly vacant...I don't pretend know how much property tax is generated by the car dealership and greyhound station, but it's more than zero. Railtown actually has been vacant for quite some time...was Coyotes/Cowboys on the corner of 4th and 12th, or 4th and 11th? Can't even remember.

Originally Posted by Zarley

The main reason would be that the site is readily developable and Remington isn't motivated to sell. They would require a significant premium to sell the site as it is a fantastic location for a master planned community.

Also, I can't say much in detail but there are challenges related to planned future infrastructure in the area: namely high-speed rail and a green line station.

That site is readily developable and has been for some time. Keynote and the other residential towers have been moderately successful, but new buildings are being built at a fairly slow rate in the area (and that was throughout the boom cycle). There are still lots of empty lots/blocks nearby that would be more desirable for residential.

I don't think any of us know how motivated they would be to sell, or lease that land. I suspect, that as with most things, they would accept a fair price...it's not like it's their only property awaiting development, and I don't imagine the tax on that vacant land is insignificant...

Good points on the green line and possible high speed rail (though who knows if/when that would be a reality) - both projects that tie in better with an arena type project than residential...

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Zarley

I just hope that the City of Calgary can cast aside biases and weigh all of the options appropriately. City bureaucrats don't like being dictated to by the private sector and I think many City planners are viewing CalgaryNext with this bias rather than fully considering the merits of the project.

Do you think they are really jaded about being 'dictated to', or more interested in planning the best city they can and being careful stewards of public money?

I know it's fun to cast aspersions on public servants and gov't officials, but it's largely overblown IMO. They are no more/less incompetent or well-intentioned than any of the rest of us.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Zarley

It really is an interesting discussion that brings out a fair bit of emotion in people. I just hope that the City of Calgary can cast aside biases and weigh all of the options appropriately. City bureaucrats don't like being dictated to by the private sector and I think many City planners are viewing CalgaryNext with this bias rather than fully considering the merits of the project. Regardless, it's an important project for the city and I hope that all parties can work together towards a fantastic solution.

There are biases because the proposal was ####.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Weitz

Thats 2 people wide.

I'm sure that will be a large lift to fix if they decided to go forward with these plans. No chance they'd build a wider bridge or anything to connect the brand new facility to the train station.

[powderjunkie]

^ Of course...but these are all things that go into suitability of place. They haven't really explained why they like this space better than alternatives (though I suspect it has to do with capitalizing on surrounding development). They've barely communicated the benefits of the combined facility, but nothing on WHY WV AFAIK.

[monkeyman]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

I'm sure that will be a large lift to fix if they decided to go forward with these plans. No chance they'd build a wider bridge or anything to connect the brand new facility to the train station.

Its hard to know for sure given the amount of foresight in the current proposal.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

^ Of course...but these are all things that go into suitability of place. They haven't really explained why they like this space better than alternatives (though I suspect it has to do with capitalizing on surrounding development). They've barely communicated the benefits of the combined facility, but nothing on WHY WV AFAIK.

Upgrades to infrastructure, like pedestrian bridges, are going to be a part of any proposal on any location, it's not something anyone should be pointing to as an issue, as it will be required almost anywhere they put this thing.

Fair to say that maybe the revamp of more major infrastructure around the facility, if to cumbersome or costly is absolutely something that should be considered and spoken too.

Why do they like this location, it's likely pretty simple. It's Down Town (in a broad sense of Down Town location), can likely accomodate the size of the project, and does not tie them to the Stampede. All pluses from a Flames stand point. There aren't actually that many DT locations that could accomodate what they proposed, and likely no others that don't potentially tie them to the stampede, which I'm sure the city wants, but they would prefer not to do.