[Trade] Flames acquire G Brian Elliott for 35th OA & conditional 2018 3rd

[Calgary4LIfe]

That's the thing with Ortio - he does show promise and COULD end up developing into a decent starter. Is it worth it to cut bait with him and sign an experienced UFA backup? Some people will say yes, some people will say no. There are valid arguments to both.

If Ortio comes in slightly improved, I think it would be the best of both worlds - gives the Flames a reliable backup, while possibly continue to develop into something more. If he provides the Flames with equal goaltending to last season - or worse - then the Flames will be regretful in not signing a more experienced backup. I am personally starting to lean a bit more on the 'sign Enroth/Johnson/Montoya/someone else' side of things, but won't be disappointed if they choose to re-sign Ortio.

[calgaryboy]

Yeah, Montoya would be a perfect fit. Not a fan of resigning Ortio. I think Montoya is a great backup goalie. That would be perfect in my eyes!

[DeluxeMoustache]

Good discussion the last few posts.

The way I see it, team defensive system contributed greatly to sv%.

Manny Fernandez and Duane Roloson both had mid .930 save percentages with Minnesota under Jacques Lemaire one year. These guys were respectfully not the 1-2 NHL goalie punch. Mike Smith and other goalies under Tippett have done well (Smith good in Dallas, bad in Tampa, good in Phoenix)

Sure the Flames let through point shots but it was not because they consciously outnumbered the other team in the slot and applied more pressure, the passiveness was pervasive. That hurt their goalies across the board.

High danger shots, again, are categorized based on the proxy of shot location. A cross crease tap in is not the same as a guy stuffing the luck in to a well placed pad.

Any of the Flames goalies (except Hiller, due to his well documented weaknesses) could well have benefited from a defensive system that committed to more pressure on the shooter.

There are systemic issues that should be addressed by the coach and also goaltending issues that should be addressed by anybody not named Hiller

These charts are good to foster discussion but are not the be all end all to determine what goalies have value

I personally subscribe to the school of thought that, much like the Red Wings and Hawks have used in their successful years, that an average or slightly above average goalie will get the job done, behind the right team. I can't be bothered to validate it, but think I remember that one of those GMs said they didn't believe in overpaying for goaltending.

Matt Murray, with all due respect, stopped, what, 2 shots in the third period to win the Cup?

Glad that Elliott is here. But do think that Ortio or Ramo would be adequate backups.

Too much to fix out front to fault the G last year (Hiller all year and everyone else October excepted, of course)

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

What exactly is the Flames system? Fall back and collapse in front of the net and sacrifice your body to block shots? I imagine it took him a while to get used to playing an outdated system that went against a lot of principles he had been taught over his career. Even guys like Gio and Brodie that were well versed in the system looked like amateurs at times last season.

Not to derail this into a Hamilton bread but we need to stop making excuses for his poor play at the start of last year. It is 100% on him and this is the year he needs to play up to his contract for the Flames to take a big jump.

[Fire]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

The only knock against Chad Johnson is that he's already 30. Ortio is five years younger and may still have room to improve.

I was always a Ortio supporter, but I keep thinking if Elliot gets hurt I would be worried about placing the season on the back of Ortio. I don't think the Flames want to take that chance. I would sign Chad Johnson as the backup, but I think Elliot would raise his eyebrows on that signing. He just left a two goalie system, I don't think he wants to join another one. So maybe someone like Hutton would be better.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Not to derail this into a Hamilton bread but we need to stop making excuses for his poor play at the start of last year. It is 100% on him and this is the year he needs to play up to his contract for the Flames to take a big jump.

Well the same can be said of Giordano who was absolutely awful for the first two months of the season so I tend to believe it was a team thing. I'm having a hard time believing all the defensemen could be individually terrible at the same time as it was a collective issue of poor goaltending and a league that had figured out the Flames system. I would say last season Hamilton did play up to the level of his contract especially once Hartley was forced to give him a bigger role.

[phoenix66]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Not to derail this into a Hamilton bread but we need to stop making excuses for his poor play at the start of last year. It is 100% on him and this is the year he needs to play up to his contract for the Flames to take a big jump.

I think youll see the real Dougie this season for a couple reasons, not to add to excuses but D requires not only adapting to the system, but also your partner. They need to get him a regular partner and stick with it. A big reason why Gio and Brodie do so well together is they know each others play.
Hamilton not only had to learn a new system he had to not play with Chara for the first time.
As far as the system goes, it sounds like we are going back to a system he was originally used to.
It was no different than when Jbo came, took him a full season to start looking like the Jbo we were expecting

[Mr.Coffee]

Hartley was under-using Hamilton. Now that we have a new coach I bet Hamilton's stock rises quickly and his slow start will all but be forgotten.

As Warrener (and many others) have said, when you get more ice time you tend to play better. That alone will make Hamilton better.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Not to derail this into a Hamilton bread but we need to stop making excuses for his poor play at the start of last year. It is 100% on him and this is the year he needs to play up to his contract for the Flames to take a big jump.

I don't see them as "excuses" so much as reasons for his surprisingly poor performance, and an explanation for how he improved so dramatically as the season wore on. Whether it was an adjustment to a new system, or just the difficulty of settling into a new team, city, part of the country for the first time in his professional career, does it matter? The point here is that he played poorly to start the year, but that level of play should not be used as a measure of his abilities and potential.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

That's the thing with Ortio - he does show promise and COULD end up developing into a decent starter. Is it worth it to cut bait with him and sign an experienced UFA backup? Some people will say yes, some people will say no. There are valid arguments to both.

If Ortio comes in slightly improved, I think it would be the best of both worlds - gives the Flames a reliable backup, while possibly continue to develop into something more. If he provides the Flames with equal goaltending to last season - or worse - then the Flames will be regretful in not signing a more experienced backup. I am personally starting to lean a bit more on the 'sign Enroth/Johnson/Montoya/someone else' side of things, but won't be disappointed if they choose to re-sign Ortio.

Next year is not the Flames window to compete with the top teams....that may still be another 2 years away at this point. If you can sign Ortio to a 1 or 2 year deal for cheap, you can at least work with him at the NHL level and see where he goes.

Elliot is here to be the guy - give him 60 starts and Ortio can mop up the rest of the games. Even if he's no better than last season, it's not going to make a drastic difference between him and some other backup that ends up with a pricey, multi year contract via free agency.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by phoenix66

I think youll see the real Dougie this season for a couple reasons, not to add to excuses but D requires not only adapting to the system, but also your partner. They need to get him a regular partner and stick with it. A big reason why Gio and Brodie do so well together is they know each others play.
Hamilton not only had to learn a new system he had to not play with Chara for the first time.
As far as the system goes, it sounds like we are going back to a system he was originally used to.
It was no different than when Jbo came, took him a full season to start looking like the Jbo we were expecting

It took a coaching change to see the Bouwmeester that we were expecting.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

Next year is not the Flames window to compete with the top teams....that may still be another 2 years away at this point. If you can sign Ortio to a 1 or 2 year deal for cheap, you can at least work with him at the NHL level and see where he goes.

Elliot is here to be the guy - give him 60 starts and Ortio can mop up the rest of the games. Even if he's no better than last season, it's not going to make a drastic difference between him and some other backup that ends up with a pricey, multi year contract via free agency.

The issue arises if Elliott gets injured. Will the season be lost, or will Ortio stand up under the pressure?

Also, getting any extra win during the season could mean the Flames advancing to the playoffs, or being just like you and me watching the playoffs from the comfort of our sofas. I will agree that there won't be a huge discrepancy, but every single win counts.

This all might be moot anyways - it isn't an outrageous idea to consider that Ortio improves slightly - that puts him comfortably in the realm of stable backup. Question is, do the Flames count on it, or will they sign someone else. I guess we will know by 5pm.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

That's the thing with Ortio - he does show promise and COULD end up developing into a decent starter. Is it worth it to cut bait with him and sign an experienced UFA backup? Some people will say yes, some people will say no. There are valid arguments to both.

If Ortio comes in slightly improved, I think it would be the best of both worlds - gives the Flames a reliable backup, while possibly continue to develop into something more. If he provides the Flames with equal goaltending to last season - or worse - then the Flames will be regretful in not signing a more experienced backup. I am personally starting to lean a bit more on the 'sign Enroth/Johnson/Montoya/someone else' side of things, but won't be disappointed if they choose to re-sign Ortio.

In my view, Ortio is not mentally strong enough to be a number 1. Athletically, he can do everything. He's a good puck handler. Something is missing, and I think it's between the ears.

I recall Ortio's final development camp, where as one of the oldest guys there, he looked like the weakest tender. He was visibly upset in the crease after multiple soft goals. All of this is conjecture, but he looked like he didn't want to be there. It was like the fight had gone out of him.

Ultimately, some bad body language in a summer camp practice doesn't define a player. But it took two years for him to get a home start, and he laid that Montreal egg. To me, that tells me something about his ability to rise to the occasion.

Let's see how the team does with a more structured defensive system, as Hartley's requires Patrick Roy to be effective.

[Fire]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

This all might be moot anyways - it isn't an outrageous idea to consider that Ortio improves slightly - that puts him comfortably in the realm of stable backup. Question is, do the Flames count on it, or will they sign someone else. I guess we will know by 5pm.

I don't think by offering Ortio a qualifying offer means they wouldn't be looking for a more experienced backup. Qualifying Ortio could just be a fall back if they are unable to find someone better. If they do find someone else, Ortio can be sent down or maybe more likely go to Europe and play.

[Chell_King]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

Wish he had more than one year on his contract, will be asking for Bishop money next year especially if he does well.

What Goalie would you rather?

Bishop at 7 million?
Andersen at 5 million?
MAF at 6 million?

or

Elliott 2.5



Speak to it...

[Enoch Root]

Great trade.

Going back to Bingo's article, it would be difficult to create a better combination of low acquisition cost, low cap hit, and quality player than this. Obviously, how much it costs to re-sign him will factor into that, but the Flames get time to decide and evaluate (not just him but all of their goalies).

The other thing this trade dies is open the door for a UFA. If they go with Ortio as the backup, they're looking at a total cost of $3.3M or so in net. That would really help.

[Hatter]

It absolutely blows my mind that the Flames will be going from $8.3 million (more if including the 3-headed monster) against the cap for goaltending to somewhere closer to 3.5 or 4 million. That will be HUGE for next season until the Wideman/Raymond/Engelland contracts expire.

What a great trade.

[Stay Golden]

Originally Posted by Chell_King

What Goalie would you rather?

Bishop at 7 million?
Andersen at 5 million?
MAF at 6 million?

or

Elliott 2.5



Speak to it...

For this year at 2.5 there is no way he is under 5m next year.
And if the Flames do not step up and negotiate with him this year and bite the bullet on the conditional.
He is gone why stay for a team that trades for you just based on low cap hit. Unless he falls in love with Calgary, Elliott is a one year Flame and moves on.
The only reason the Flames have not extended Elliott is G&M new contracts. Which I don't quite get because they know roughly what it will take to sign G&M.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Stay Golden

The only reason the Flames have not extended Elliott is G&M new contracts. Which I don't quite get because they know roughly what it will take to sign G&M.

This is absolute nonsense.

The principal reason the Flames have not extended Elliott is that they are forbidden to offer him an extension until July 1. Look at your calendar, for crying out loud.

[Enoch Root]

Plus, Gaudreau and Monahan will have contracts for this year. Next year is unchanged for them, and there is tons of room for an extension for Elliot.