[Rumour] Francis: Penguins want 6th OA for Fleury

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by Mister Yamoto

Fair enough. I just don't see the Penguins in a "need to trade" situation. That day will not happen until the day before the expansion draft. And if it does come right down to that day, they could trade Murray for a kings ransom.

The rumours that the Penguins will only move Fleury for the right price because they are willing to keep both goalies make perfect sense to me. That's the best play for the Penguins.

And if MAFs NMC is going to be such a problem one year from now why wouldn't it be a problem right now?

Maybe the Flames are the only team who needs a starter. That doesn't mean that teams will be lining up to give them one.

Ask Vancouver how well that worked out for them.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Someone that needs a goalie?
It is a risk to be sure - but they are betting that the return will be better at some point in the year when a team needs a goalie, due to poor performance of their current tenders, injury or other factors.
His value could be way higher at the deadline.
A gamble. But one they might take.

It's a HUGE gamble. Because the goalie market is only going to get more liquid.

[Clarkey]

Where did Murray come from? Was he an elite goalie prospect that was expected to step up or did he come out of left field?

[bobbylouie]

I've read about a hundred times now that the ONLY two options for Pittsburgh are to trade Fleury to protect Murray....or to protect Fleury and lose Murray to Vegas in the expansion draft. But there is a 3rd option that has played out countless times in past expansion drafts and is just as likely as the two options endlessly discussed.

If the veteran Fleury + golden boy Murray scenario is still intact a year from now (in my mind a shaky premise to begin with since a million other things could change in 12 months), work out a handshake deal in advance with Vegas NOT to select Murray and instead let them pick the best other available player and sweeten the pot by agreeing to send them a usable veteran and a few other lesser prospects after the fact.

Vegas will have several goalie options from the other 29 teams and could easily go for a deal like this to solidify the team overall and greatly add to their depth and prospect pool. These types of pre-arranged deals happen all the time in every draft, going back to the 1967 expansion draft when Montreal pulled it off about 4 times in one day to keep their core team Stanley Cup finalist team intact.

And.....all of this is predicated on Matt Murray being the guaranteed #1 target a year from now after all of 34 games in the NHL and a solid but very brief 8-week run.

The penguins don't have to do anything right now, and trading Fleury to protect Murray isn't the ONLY option.

[bax]

Originally Posted by Clarkey

Where did Murray come from? Was he an elite goalie prospect that was expected to step up or did he come out of left field?

Pittsburgh actually drafted him right after we took Gillies. I think it was 3 or 4 picks later. He's always been viewed as a solid prospect, but once he turned pro he really started to turn some heads.

He quietly ripped up the AHL for parts of two seasons before finally getting the call to Pittsburgh due to injury. We all know how it went after that.

[BACKCHECK!!!]

Originally Posted by Clarkey

Where did Murray come from? Was he an elite goalie prospect that was expected to step up or did he come out of left field?

The Flames were reported to have been actively trying to trade for Murray before he ever made his NHL debut.

He's been a highly-touted prospect for the last 2 years or so.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by bobbylouie

I've read about a hundred times now that the ONLY two options for Pittsburgh are to trade Fleury to protect Murray....or to protect Fleury and lose Murray to Vegas in the expansion draft. But there is a 3rd option that has played out countless times in past expansion drafts and is just as likely as the two options endlessly discussed.

If the veteran Fleury + golden boy Murray scenario is still intact a year from now (in my mind a shaky premise to begin with since a million other things could change in 12 months), work out a handshake deal in advance with Vegas NOT to select Murray and instead let them pick the best other available player and sweeten the pot by agreeing to send them a usable veteran and a few other lesser prospects after the fact.

Vegas will have several goalie options from the other 29 teams and could easily go for a deal like this to solidify the team overall and greatly add to their depth and prospect pool. These types of pre-arranged deals happen all the time in every draft, going back to the 1967 expansion draft when Montreal pulled it off about 4 times in one day to keep their core team Stanley Cup finalist team intact.

And.....all of this is predicated on Matt Murray being the guaranteed #1 target a year from now after all of 34 games in the NHL and a solid but very brief 8-week run.

The penguins don't have to do anything right now, and trading Fleury to protect Murray isn't the ONLY option.

Absolutely.

However, if Murray continues to perform well this year, that handshake will require a pretty significant sweetener.

If you're Vegas, and Pitt has exposed a budding star goaltender who is only 23 or 24, you're going to ask for a pretty nice piece in order to not take him.

As you say, a lot can happen. But if things continue to go well for Murray, your proposal won't be as simple or easy as you suggest.

It could cost them a pretty nice prospect.

So that begs the question: do you risk having to pay Vegas a nice prospect in order to keep your goalies, or do you trade Fleury now and receive some assets (along with cap space)?

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Someone that needs a goalie?

It is a risk to be sure - but they are betting that the return will be better at some point in the year when a team needs a goalie, due to poor performance of their current tenders, injury or other factors.

His value could be way higher at the deadline.

A gamble. But one they might take.

Even if they don't expect a better offer they may value the security of a solid tandem for next year and take their chances later

[BACKCHECK!!!]

Originally Posted by bobbylouie

I've read about a hundred times now that the ONLY two options for Pittsburgh are to trade Fleury to protect Murray....or to protect Fleury and lose Murray to Vegas in the expansion draft. But there is a 3rd option that has played out countless times in past expansion drafts and is just as likely as the two options endlessly discussed.

If the veteran Fleury + golden boy Murray scenario is still intact a year from now (in my mind a shaky premise to begin with since a million other things could change in 12 months), work out a handshake deal in advance with Vegas NOT to select Murray and instead let them pick the best other available player and sweeten the pot by agreeing to send them a usable veteran and a few other lesser prospects after the fact.

Vegas will have several goalie options from the other 29 teams and could easily go for a deal like this to solidify the team overall and greatly add to their depth and prospect pool. These types of pre-arranged deals happen all the time in every draft, going back to the 1967 expansion draft when Montreal pulled it off about 4 times in one day to keep their core team Stanley Cup finalist team intact.

And.....all of this is predicated on Matt Murray being the guaranteed #1 target a year from now after all of 34 games in the NHL and a solid but very brief 8-week run.

The penguins don't have to do anything right now, and trading Fleury to protect Murray isn't the ONLY option.

That has been done before, but it hasn't worked out well for the expansion teams.

2000 expansion draft teams took late-round picks and vets in exchange for not drafting (for example) Evgeniy Nabokov, Martin Biron, and Dominic Hasek.

And instead they ended up with guys like Rick Tabaracci, and a geriatric Mike Vernon. They took the draft picks in exchange for not poaching the goalies, but they ended up with vastly inferior goalies.

The dynamic this time will be quite different because there's only one expansion team, but I think the lesson to learn from past expansions is to show no mercy when it come to poaching goalies.

If I was running the show, Pittsburgh would have to open their wallet pretty wide for me not to take Murray.

[calgarybornnraised]

Originally Posted by BACKCHECK!!!

The Flames were reported to have been actively trying to trade for Murray before he ever made his NHL debut.

He's been a highly-touted prospect for the last 2 years or so.

I don't have a great memory, was it ever reported what the Flames offered for Murray at the deadline.

[tremorchrist]

Originally Posted by bax

When has this ever happened? Matt Murray would be the closest comparable since he is from the same draft as Gillies, but even he had over 80 games of AHL experience.

Tom Barrasso went straight from high-school to NHL starter at 18. However, only
Goalie to ever do so, I think.

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by calgarybornnraised

I don't have a great memory, was it ever reported what the Flames offered for Murray at the deadline.

I don't think so. Just that the Penguins had no interest in talking about trading him.

[JiriHrdina]

Ken Dryden went straight from college hockey to the NHL

[IgiTang]

Hope Gillies and Murray don't turn out to be like Kidd and Brodeur..

We picked the wrong guy then.. hope it's not history repeating itself.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

Hope Gillies and Murray don't turn out to be like Kidd and Brodeur..

We picked the wrong guy then.. hope it's not history repeating itself.

Somehow , I doubt taking the wrong guy in the 3rd round will eclipse passing on one of the five greatest to ever play the position to take Trevor Kidd.

[Chingas]

[Racki]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Someone that needs a goalie?
It is a risk to be sure - but they are betting that the return will be better at some point in the year when a team needs a goalie, due to poor performance of their current tenders, injury or other factors.
His value could be way higher at the deadline.
A gamble. But one they might take.

It is an enormous gamble.

Let's pretend for a second that the Flames do get their goalie elsewhere and now the number of suitors is virtually zero. Next season comes around and most teams get acceptable performances out of their starters. Those that don't are either out of the playoffs so not interested in adding salary and others (Dallas) just can't add because of cap implications. No teams in the east will do them any favours unless they have no choice.

Would Pittsburgh really put themselves into that predicament? Would they take any chance that they could lose Murray for nothing? What if Murray is hurt? Now they have to keep Fleury if they are in a playoff race.

Too many things could go wrong. They have to move Fleury this offseason.

[MarkGio]

lol, good luck with that.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Somehow , I doubt taking the wrong guy in the 3rd round will eclipse passing on one of the five greatest to ever play the position to take Trevor Kidd.

It seems like a joke now but Trevor Kidd was ranked higher by everybody not just the Flames

Lots of teams wish they took Marty I'm sure...let that be a lesson for all the kids on draft day. All the rankings and fancy stats are nice but who the fack knows

[bobbylouie]

It's all way premature. Matt Murray was barely on anybody's radar just a few months ago and could easily not be 6 months from now. This angst is all based on a couple of good months (weeks really) by Murray. The idea of him being a can't miss/building block type player is so far from a lock that if I was Pittsburgh I wouldn't be in any hurry to make a pre-emptive move for something that might not even be an issue a year from now. For Vegas, the normally slotted non-protected Penguin, another solid veteran, plus a couple of prospects could easily be as enticing for a team starting from scratch if Pittsburgh wants to keep Murray that much. If he really becomes an elite full-time goalie next season and the Penguins feel they just have to keep him, then deal with Fleury then. If Vegas won't deal, the Penguins aren't going to be the only team over the barrel with protection problems, there will be other teams willing to get creative at the last minute to avoid losing assets for nothing who they can maneuver with. It's not that big of a gamble.

I feel similarly about the difference between 3oa and 6oa in the amateur draft. I wouldn't give up much of anything to move up 3 spots. Three years from now, when it matters, this year's supposed order of available talent will look like a joke compared to how the players actually turn out. That's the closest thing to a guarantee you'll get out of any sports draft. Stay at 6, keep your existing assets and make the best choice you can make, it's almost 50-50 to turn out better than the #3 pick anyway.