What happens when we die?

[Coach]

Fair enough. That I can get on board with. As long as we're talking about "believe this is the way it is" vs "believe this a possibility".

[dissentowner]

Some really great discussion going on here which is what I was hoping to get out of the subjects I am coming up with. Reading others thoughts on topics like this is enlightening and I really enjoy it. Thanks everyone.

[calgaryblood]

What if we've all already lived and this is the afterlife..

[Dion]

Originally Posted by peter12

some of the atheists in this thread.

One must have a thick skin to wade into these discussions. There will always be insults and such.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

What if we've all already lived and this is the afterlife..

Unless you have some connection to the prior existence, what difference does it make?

Functionally identical to the 'this is it' scenario.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

What if we've all already lived and this is the afterlife..

This certainly isn't Heaven. I want a do over

[jeffporfirio]

Seems most of the posters are atheists, which I can understand, agnostics seem difficult to fathom for me.
I will throw this out there at the risk of being humiliated, mocked or insulted.
I'm a Christian, a Catholic to be exact, but didn't become one until into adulthood.
I didn't believe in God or had even the notion of a supreme creator. I came to be interested in the subject of God after talking to other Catholics, reading tons of books on the subject of Jesus, listening to podcasts and watching documentaries.
It is through knowing the person of Jesus that I came to believe in God, a creator, a heavenly Father.
I wont discuss the historical Jesus, as there no need to, one does not even have to read the bible to know that the historical Jesus existed. Plenty of non-Christian historians wrote about Jesus the man (Pliny, Tacitus, Josephus, etc.).
The question for me was; was Jesus who He claimed to be? And the simplest answer was the testimony of the aspotles and of the early church. You see, it could have been a lie, but nobody dies for a lie. Plenty of people die for lies they think are true (ie 9/11 so called martyrs), but nobody dies for what they know are lies (how many Koreshians are out there?). The apostles and early church knew Jesus, saw him, ate with him, and still went to horrific deaths proclaiming he whom they knew. For the first 325 years of the church, Christianity was an illegal superstition and still the church grew. For these reasons, the testimony of the early church and apostles, I believe in Jesus.
So I believe His word and preaching on God and the afterlife.
I believe C.S. Lewis put it best, "Jesus was either Lord, lier or lunatic", up to each what they believe.

[The Fonz]

Originally Posted by peter12

I'm not sure if my comments really derailed this thread or whatever, but I feel that the atheists in this thread just like getting their jollies by dumping all over the kind of pop-woo descriptions of personal belief, which is weird, because they are only expressed to exemplify the personal mystery that these individuals feel when contemplating their place in the universe.

I don't get my jollies by dumping on people with faith, but I cannot help but be frustrated by it, simply because of how unreasonable the belief is.

It would be like if someone told me that they believed Apes inhabited the bottom of the Mariana Trench, and the fact that I cannot prove that they don't live down there, is proof it's a possibility that they do. This would be an entirely unreasonable argument to make, and would be equally frustrating for me to hear. Fortunately though, I don't have to worry about anyone ever believing in this, as people do not tend to believe in irrational realities unless they're in a position to personally benefit from that irrational belief.

[photon]

Originally Posted by jeffporfirio

For these reasons, the testimony of the early church and apostles, I believe in Jesus.

Not sure if you are interested, but if you would like an alternative view based in current Biblical scholarship that would challenge pretty much all of your points I'd suggest almost everything by Bart Ehrman, his books are pretty conservative in that they don't deviate much from where current scholarship is at.

[jeffporfirio]

Originally Posted by photon

Not sure if you are interested, but if you would like an alternative view based in current Biblical scholarship that would challenge pretty much all of your points I'd suggest almost everything by Bart Ehrman, his books are pretty conservative in that they don't deviate much from where current scholarship is at.

Read Misquoting Jesus, but his arguments are flawed. Yes, I know we all played the telephone game, but for an oral tradition culture like found in the middle east in the time of Jesus, changing anything passed on would be inconceivable.
People in those times could not read nor write, the printing press wasn't even invented, oral tradition was all they had.
Still though, as mentioned in my post non-Christian historians wrote about Jesus, and that alone debunks most of Erhman's points.
Add to that the letters of St Paul and other early church Fathers.

[stampsx2]

It's just..... I have a hard time believing that life just ends and it's black after death without any proof. If I could see some proof of it, I'd be more inclined to believe it.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by stampsx2

It's just..... I have a hard time believing that life just ends and it's black after death without any proof. If I could see some proof of it, I'd be more inclined to believe it.

There's a 196 people who voted in this thread that could give you the proof.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by stampsx2

It's just..... I have a hard time believing that life just ends and it's black after death without any proof. If I could see some proof of it, I'd be more inclined to believe it.

See? I'm the one asking for evidence to accept that anything beyond nothing exists and you want evidence that nothing exists for you to abandon the notion that was accepted without evidence.

[RT14]

Originally Posted by stampsx2

It's just..... I have a hard time believing that life just ends and it's black after death without any proof. If I could see some proof of it, I'd be more inclined to believe it.

See, while I agree it seems hard to believe it just ends, I find it equally hard to believe in any other possibility too. And yet, something happens, be it an abrupt end and blackness or reincarnation or heaven/hell or whatever. I just don't see how anyone can firmly believe one way or the other when there's no proof for or against any possible outcome.

I believe in facts, and the fact is there are no facts about what happens to us after we die.

[Fuzz]

The facts are that we exist because of our brain activity. When you die, that ceases. Unless there is some evidence that that activity is transferred elsewhere, what happens is that you stop existing. Without the ability for consciousness to leave the body, it doesn't leave much room for a heaven or hell, or reincarnation.

[Enoch Root]

What is all this talk of blackness? Death as a finality isn't blackness, it means ceasing to exist.

Some of you are making it sound like you float around in darkness for all eternity.

And that muddies your point, RT14... you describe blackness like it's another option, no more or less sensible than the other options. But that's not what is being proposed: Ceasing to exist, full stop, is a very different type of option than 'other possibilities' which are all, by definition, its opposite.

Edit: and what Fuzz said

[stampsx2]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

The facts are that we exist because of our brain activity. When you die, that ceases. Unless there is some evidence that that activity is transferred elsewhere, what happens is that you stop existing. Without the ability for consciousness to leave the body, it doesn't leave much room for a heaven or hell, or reincarnation.

Well I'll agree with one point. The body definitely ceases. All heart monitors and brain detectors are proof of that. From a completely material point of view, life definitely ceases to exist. I don't believe consciousness or the soul can be measured weather we're alive or dead. You can't measure how egotistical someone is or what choices they'll make in life either.

But if the body is just a vehicle for the soul to expierience then that would make sense.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by stampsx2

Well I'll agree with one point. The body definitely ceases. All heart monitors and brain detectors are proof of that. From a completely material point of view, life definitely ceases to exist. I don't believe consciousness or the soul can be measured weather we're alive or dead. You can't measure how egotistical someone is or what choices they'll make in life either.

Do other animals like orangutans have souls, or just humans?

[stampsx2]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Do other animals like orangutans have souls, or just humans?

From a material point of view, if you can't see hear touch or measure it, it doesn't exist.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by stampsx2

From a material point of view, if you can't see hear touch or measure it, it doesn't exist.

So neither orangutans nor humans have a soul? I thought you were saying humans did earlier, but I may have misunderstood.