About 50 people killed at gay nightclub in Florida

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Three things.

First, are places like Indonesia, Pakistan and Egypt really third world countries? They're not Canada, sure, but they're not Afghanistan, either.

Second, no, it's not the case that people in non-Western countries should be held to a different and lesser moral standard. That is a bigotry of low expectations.

Third... seriously, man? You're quoting stats on gay marriage? We're talking about huge proportions of people who don't just think gays shouldn't marry, but think they should be thrown from rooftops, or bludgeoned with stones until they die, and an even bigger proportion who would say "no, don't kill them, but who they are is still disgusting and immoral and an offense unto God".

There's a pretty big gap in what we're looking for as a moral commitment here. It would be a huge step in the right direction to just have everyone get on the same page that gay people are allowed to live; we can worry about the marriage thing down the road, I think.

Like I said it doesn't shock me that a third world country like Pakistan (yes, they are a third world country no matter how much you saying they aren't helps your argument) would want homosexuals thrown off roofs when you have a guy like Peter12 a consevative living in such a peaceful country like Canada saying opposing gay marriage doesn't make you a homophobe. It absolutely does.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

I think you have an orientalist view of Pakistan. I also think you have a simplistic view of morality generally, because gay marriage is totally beside the point here. The notion that marriage should be between a man and a woman or whatever such nonsense rationale is used by the religious right in the west is barely on a continuum with murdering people for their sexual orientation.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by peter12

There is no moral equivalence between Muslim quasi-theocratic regimes and the United States of America.

Man it feels like I'm living in a dream world. The U.S just recently passed a law that was fought in court just to give homosexuals equal rights did they not? The United States government is coming around, lets now hope the citizens follow suit as their is still clearly 40% of Americans who don't agree homosexuals are equal. Sure they're not throwing them off roofs but there is still hatred in at least 100 million Americans toward gays.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I think you have an orientalist view of Pakistan. I also think you have a simplistic view of morality generally, because gay marriage is totally beside the point here. The notion that marriage should be between a man and a woman or whatever such nonsense rationale is used by the religious right in the west is barely on a continuum with murdering people for their sexual orientation. These things are apples to oranges.

Which was my point of how it doesn't shock me when a backwards country has those beliefs, didn't say it was right. But we as western countries have a whole lot to go before we try to solve the morality of others.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Yeah, no. We do not need to be morally perfect before we start opposing the practice of ####ing murdering people for who they are. If you're for gay rights, you're for gay rights everywhere. It's not somehow more acceptable because it's done halfway around the world or because you think they're less educated and enlightened there.

[calgaryblood]

Jesus, where did I say it was somewhat acceptable? If you're going to be debate don't argue things nobody said. All I said is I wasn't shocked and I don't see you opposing peter12 and his comment on opposing gay marriage doesn't make you a homophobe. I'd love to see your thoughts on that.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Man it feels like I'm living in a dream world. The U.S just recently passed a law that was fought in court just to give homosexuals equal rights did they not? The United States government is coming around, lets now hope the citizens follow suit as their is still clearly 40% of Americans who don't agree homosexuals are equal. Sure they're not throwing them off roofs but there is still hatred in at least 100 million Americans toward gays.

You are living in a dream world. Not thinking gay people should marry is a defensible position in a democracy. Obergefell v. Hodges - the landmark Supreme Court decision - was split.

Obviously, we have come a long way, but if you even went back 50 years, the situation in the USA was nowhere near as bad for homosexuals as it is in say Cairo now.

[calgaryblood]

Believing two people who love each other can't or shouldn't get married all comes back to religion. The reason people who oppose gay marriage comes back to what the bible or whatever religion says about homisexuals. To try and spin it into anything else just shows you're not being honest to yourself.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Believing two people who love each other can't or shouldn't get married all comes back to religion. The reason people who oppose gay marriage comes back to what the bible or whatever religion says about homisexuals. To try and spin it into anything else just shows you're not being honest to yourself.

That's not what this conversation is about. Stop equivocating murder with sanctioned democratic debate. They aren't the same, and it is quite shocking that you see the two as being similar.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by peter12

That's not what this conversation is about. Stop equivocating murder with sanctioned democratic debate. They aren't the same, and it is quite shocking that you see the two as being similar.

Keep telling yourself that to make your homophobic views that stem from your religious beliefs seem democratic and rationale. There is no gay marriage debate when it comes to a democracy. Having any one not treated equally is the exact opposite of democratic.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Keep telling yourself that to make your homophobic views that stem from your religious beliefs seem democratic and rationale. There is no gay marriage debate when it comes to a democracy. Having any one not treated equally is the exact opposite of democratic.

Oh never mind.

[PepsiFree]

While I agree with a lot of what you're saying calgaryblood, I definitely wouldn't count peter12 as a homophobe.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I know what the terms mean, I'm just not sure why Obama prefers ISIL as terminology. I'm just curious as to why. I don't have a particular preference, really, but most people seem to use ISIS, and if I had to choose, ISIS seems more accurate, doesn't it? Might as well have everyone using the same lexicon.

But anyway, if you don't think it's common sense that these are religious people acting for what they see as their religious mandate, then I don't know what to tell you, you've abandoned reality completely.

The idea that a lack of clear talk is what is standing in the way of the West and the regressive views some Muslims have lacks even basic intellectualism.

The West isn't winning any ideology war with Islam in the Middle East. Never, ever. Ego-centric fantasy. Nor are moderate and progressive Muslims in the current state of things. The "war" on this type of ideology will be state sponsored, it'll be political, and it'll be based on human rights in conjunction with religion, not in rejection of it. The same way it's been progressed in the West. You need people to reject the acts first, and then they'll reject the teachings.

It's nice you think that being for gay rights here means you're for gay rights everywhere. It is also painfully naïve to think talking clearly here is going to make a difference everywhere. Naïve to the point of dangerous ignorance. The two things your version of talking clearly will accomplish is:
A. Inspiring resentment of Muslims among Americans who can't differentiate and
B. Inspiring ISIS to continue by recognising their representation of Islam.
Nothing quells an extremist religious crusade better than constant acknowledgement of their representation of the teachings of that religion, right?

Did you ever stop to think that certain terms (like Daesh, or ISIL, or refusing to acknowledge their religious significance) are used for effect? If you think it has nothing to do with important posturing in the face of groups like ISIS and everything to do with "Ugh! PC!", you're flat out wrong. Type less, consider more.

It takes time to shift ideology. If you think any progress will be made by the US president telling it straight, your understanding of the problem is in its infancy.
Your one-note personal war against political correctness misses the mark on this one. Irrelevant.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Believing two people who love each other can't or shouldn't get married all comes back to religion. The reason people who oppose gay marriage comes back to what the bible or whatever religion says about homisexuals. To try and spin it into anything else just shows you're not being honest to yourself.

That sir is not even close to the truth, you don't have to be religious to believe that a male should partner up with a female, I've been an atheist for over 40 years and while I have softened my views and even accepted my friends relationships who are gay with open arms they know a big part of me still finds it "un-natural" for people of the same sex to have sex with each other.

When I say un-natural i'll put it this way, imagine early man in a cave (before religion) now imagine how long a man would live if he put the moves on another man in those days.

And trust me I'm not alone in thinking this way but I'm a minority who'll admit it openly.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Is it really a surprise that third world countries would not be as moral as us? When it wasn't that long ago gays weren't even allowed to marry each other here in Canada and in the United States?

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

A 2015 poll of the United States showed 40% oppose gay marriage. So it's no surprise when a country with no education system and strong religious beliefs would oppose gay marriage when a democracy has that much disdain for homosexuality.

In Canada the number is about 35% opposition. Even higher in conservatives.

A) We're not talking about Muslims in third world countries. The poll Corsi brought up was of Muslims in the UK.

B) We're not talking about opposition to gay marriage. We're talking about the criminalization of homosexuality itself. The poll I saw showed over 60 per cent of British Muslims believe homosexuality should not be legal. So basically, they'd support winding the clock back 50 years to when men found having sex with other men were prosecuted by the courts, lost their jobs, etc.

I can't get my head around the idea that it's perfectly okay to denounce extreme social conservatism when promoted by religions that are followed mainly be white people, but it's taboo to even acknowledge extreme social conservatism when promoted by religions that are followed mainly by non-white people.

How far are we going to go in obscuring the truth out of squeamishness and partisanship? I mean, if redneck Trump supporters and Tea Partiers get more vocal about denouncing Wall Street, will it be regarded as bigoted to denounce Wall Street because, you know, that's what bigots do.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

The idea that a lack of clear talk is what is standing in the way of the West and the regressive views some Muslims have lacks even basic intellectualism.

The West isn't winning any ideology war with Islam in the Middle East. Never, ever. Ego-centric fantasy. Nor are moderate and progressive Muslims in the current state of things.

You're probably correct that there's nothing we in the West can do to mitigate extreme Islam in Afghanistan or Pakistan. But what about Muslims who immigrate to the West? Isn't it a duty to try to ensure they integrate with our values? The Netherlands shows prospective immigrants pictures of women wearing scanty bathing suits, people drinking alcohol on patios, couples kissing in public, and same-sex couples holding hands, and tells them "You'd better be okay with this, because you're moving to a country where all these behaviours are tolerated."

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It takes time to shift ideology. If you think any progress will be made by the US president telling it straight, your understanding of the problem is in its infancy.
Your one-note personal war against political correctness misses the mark on this one. Irrelevant.

And if you think obscuring the truth is a winning strategy, you haven't been paying attention. One of the main threads of the narrative of the far right's rise in Europe is that the government lies to them. The far right are dangerous fools, but it's grossly irresponsible to fuel their paranoia and alienation by, you know, doing exactly what they accuse the government of doing. Lying to the angry masses out of some patronizing belief that they can't handle the truth has been disastrous.

[OMG!WTF!]

The FBI has released the entire transcript now citing clarity. As well you can read some of the crisis negotiation calls. I think it was just such a poorly kept secret they decided not to bother.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Keep telling yourself that to make your homophobic views that stem from your religious beliefs seem democratic and rationale. There is no gay marriage debate when it comes to a democracy. Having any one not treated equally is the exact opposite of democratic.

So between 1867 and 2006 Canada was undemocratic? A dictatorship?

[metallicat]

Originally Posted by T@T

That sir is not even close to the truth, you don't have to be religious to believe that a male should partner up with a female, I've been an atheist for over 40 years and while I have softened my views and even accepted my friends relationships who are gay with open arms they know a big part of me still finds it "un-natural" for people of the same sex to have sex with each other.

When I say un-natural i'll put it this way, imagine early man in a cave (before religion) now imagine how long a man would live if he put the moves on another man in those days.

And trust me I'm not alone in thinking this way but I'm a minority who'll admit it openly.

No, you don't have to be religious. You just have to be a bigot.

And we know you're not alone. Trust me.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

I don't see you opposing peter12 and his comment on opposing gay marriage doesn't make you a homophobe. I'd love to see your thoughts on that.

I'm entirely pro-gay-marriage. Always have been. However, I do not think that the majority of the Canadians who are against it hate gay people. I don't think peter12 hates gay people. Homophobia is certainly one reason why many of the people who oppose gay marriage do so. It's also obviously not the case that opposing gay marriage equals homophobia, because there are reasons for opposing it held by a tiny percentage of the population that are just opposed to making gay life fall into heteronormative patterns. That's enough on its own to logically defeat the claim that "opposing gay marriage makes you a homophobe".

Hopefully that helps. It's completely off topic, of course, because as I said, this isn't about gay marriage at all.