Canada Post likely will be locked out/on strike - July 2

[Cecil Terwilliger]

The problem here is that like ahs, city workers, transit workers etc Canada post is a service and they have the sweetest pay, perks and pensions. They aren't part of a for profit business and have zero incentive to stay competitive in their industry.

If the employees of the 10 most profitable Canadian companies fought for rights like this I may be supportive.

However this is just another example of union employees with little regard for the future workers of their company and a willing ignorance of the reality of their industry.

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by Locke

Um. Sure. After Canada Post repays the General Revenue fund for years of absolutely staggering losses.

Its great that they're making money now, but if they'd been a private business they'd have gone under, they didnt because the Federal Government dug into taxpayer pockets to cover their losses while in the meantime their employees, who are more than fairly compensated, took no concessions.

Thats the thing, these guys were getting great pay, great pensions and great benefits when Canada Post was hemorrhaging red ink and not once did any of their benefits, jobs or pay get cut back despite the poor performance of their company.

Now, you say they're making money and the employees should share in that? If you dont share in the risk you shouldnt share in the reward.

So using your example of me, yes I'm an accountant and yes I've worked for big firms and now I work for myself. But if my firm had been basically insolvent for a decade but somehow managed to struggle through and were now making money but said none of that was going to be passed on to me because they have to recover from a down-period and conservative forward estimates then I'd have to decide whether thats for me depending on what my priorities are.

If my priority was job security and I felt I had that and I was still making more money than I could anywhere else comparably its a decision to be made and if I'm willing to take the risks I could strike out on my own.

They're not trying to "share in the profits and rewards" they're trying to protect the status quo and their jobs. I don't think you know a god damn thing about organized labour, how collective agreements work, or have any respect for at all for collective bargaining from an employees perspective.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Seriously?

Yeah im certain they didnt.

So there's been zero layoffs or cut backs in the last decade?

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/o...very-1.2459618

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

The problem here is that like ahs, city workers, transit workers etc Canada post is a service and they have the sweetest pay, perks and pensions. They aren't part of a for profit business and have zero incentive to stay competitive in their industry.

If the employees of the 10 most profitable Canadian companies fought for rights like this I may be supportive.

However this is just another example of union employees with little regard for the future workers of their company and a willing ignorance of the reality of their industry.

This is a race to the bottom mentality. Instead of the private sector unionizing and demanding better benefits and pensions, it seems we clamor to try and take away the rights and benefits that were bargained for by others.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

So there's been zero layoffs or cut backs in the last decade?

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/o...very-1.2459618

Of course there has been layoffs and cutbacks as i addressed in my first post and its WHY there are any semblance of profits now...and rightfully so when the service they provide is one that has seen the demand for it decrease by what? 60-70% since its heyday?

Are you suggesting that CP should be keeping all jobs no matter what, regardless of whether or not those people are needed?

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

This is a race to the bottom mentality. Instead of the private sector unionizing and demanding better benefits and pensions, it seems we clamor to try and take away the rights and benefits that were bargained for by others.

You can try to frame it as some hilarious envy from private sector workers.

In reality it is taxpayers tired of a bunch of unions and inefficient bureaucracy wasting their tax dollars by the billions.

I'd love it if private sector employees were rewarded better. But that has no bearing on my dislike of union employees providing government services wasting billions of tax dollars.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Locke

Um. Sure. After Canada Post repays the General Revenue fund for years of absolutely staggering losses.

Its great that they're making money now, but if they'd been a private business they'd have gone under, they didnt because the Federal Government dug into taxpayer pockets to cover their losses while in the meantime their employees, who are more than fairly compensated, took no concessions.

Thats the thing, these guys were getting great pay, great pensions and great benefits when Canada Post was hemorrhaging red ink and not once did any of their benefits, jobs or pay get cut back despite the poor performance of their company.

Now, you say they're making money and the employees should share in that? If you dont share in the risk you shouldnt share in the reward.

So using your example of me, yes I'm an accountant and yes I've worked for big firms and now I work for myself. But if my firm had been basically insolvent for a decade but somehow managed to struggle through and were now making money but said none of that was going to be passed on to me because they have to recover from a down-period and conservative forward estimates then I'd have to decide whether thats for me depending on what my priorities are.

If my priority was job security and I felt I had that and I was still making more money than I could anywhere else comparably its a decision to be made and if I'm willing to take the risks I could strike out on my own.

Jobs were cut, if that's not a concession I don't know what you would consider one. Did their CEO take a pay cut? I can't find anything that says they did.

I agree job preservation should be paramount, if we were talking about a company that is bleeding money and a union looking for increases, then we would be having a completely different conversation.

What we are seeing here is a company that is doing well, yet wants to give it's employees the short end of the stick by forcing them to accept concessions during collective bargaining. How are they forcing them? By using labour laws to circumvent the process and hold a gun to their employees head by saying "take this or we'll lock you out"

They have not made any mention of what "unreasonable" demands the union has proposed.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Of course there has been layoffs and cutbacks as i addressed in my first post and its WHY there are any semblance of profits now...and rightfully so when the service they provide is one that has seen the demand for it decrease by what? 60-70% since its heyday?

Are you suggesting that CP should be keeping all jobs no matter what, regardless of whether or not those people are needed?

No I'm not saying that at all, it just seems as though you are taking the stance that Canada post is suffering because of a decrease in mail service. While they have had a massive reduction in that area, likely more than the 60-70% you've mentioned, and one that will continue to decline, the fact of the matter is their parcel delivery service business has grown exponentially in that time and is more profitable than their mail service ever was.

So I don't know why people feel they should accept concessions in this current situation.

[transplant99]

I mean you guys can argue for keeping all this stuff going on any sort of humanitarian/utopian society grounds you like. Its not reality though.

Canada Post itself commissioned a report 3 years ago that came to the conclusion the crown corporation was staring at losing a BILLION dollars by 2020. Thats when theystarted to lay off unnecessary employees and jacked prices on stamps and some other services in order to get their business even somewhat in order.

http://www.conferenceboard.ca/e-libr....aspx?did=5443

The writing is on the wall. they are a dinosaur and only exist right now because they are taxpayer propped.

Again though the biggest problem is the government should NOT be in the business of competing with private industry. It's insane and counter productive.

I will agree that in some instances maybe CP should still be around to service areas that may not be reachable by other for profit companies, but beyond that they dont deserve any special treatment over and above what the private sector has to deal with.

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

You can try to frame it as some hilarious envy from private sector workers.

In reality it is taxpayers tired of a bunch of unions and inefficient bureaucracy wasting their tax dollars by the billions.

I'd love it if private sector employees were rewarded better. But that has no bearing on my dislike of union employees providing government services wasting billions of tax dollars.

I will frame it how I like, thanks for your permission.

How are you determining there's waste? By which measure? How the hell made you an expert?

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

They're not trying to "share in the profits and rewards" they're trying to protect the status quo and their jobs. I don't think you know a god damn thing about organized labour, how collective agreements work, or have any respect for at all for collective bargaining from an employees perspective.

As a former union worker i'm all too familiar with how members are sold a bill of goods of if we strike we're going to bring the company to it's knees and they will be forced to give us what we want. The reality here is CP cannot compete with the private sector considering the wages and benefits they recieve. If it weren't for the govt propping it up with cash infusions they'd be dead.

Workers need to take thier collective heads out of the sand and recognise the reality of the situation. A strike will do nothing but drive a stake further deeper into the slow death of CP.

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by Dion

As a former union worker i'm all too familiar with how members are sold a bill of goods of if we strike we're going to bring the company to it's knees and they will be forced to give us what we want. The reality here is CP cannot compete with the private sector considering the wages and benefits they recieve. If it weren't for the govt propping it up with cash infusions they'd be dead.

Workers need to take thier collective heads out of the sand and recognise the reality of the situation. A strike will do nothing but drive a stake further deeper into the slow death of CP.

Workers are aiming for a strike? Where are you getting this information? Canada Post, if anyone, is trying to get this to a labour dispute.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Dion

As a former union worker i'm all too familiar with how members are sold a bill of goods of if we strike we're going to bring the company to it's knees and they will be forced to give us what we want. The reality here is CP cannot compete with the private sector considering the wages and benefits they recieve. If it weren't for the govt propping it up with cash infusions they'd be dead.

Workers need to take thier collective heads out of the sand and recognise the reality of the situation. A strike will do nothing but drive a stake further deeper into the slow death of CP.

The workers aren't the ones pushing a strike here

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by transplant99

I mean you guys can argue for keeping all this stuff going on any sort of humanitarian/utopian society grounds you like. Its not reality though.

Canada Post itself commissioned a report 3 years ago that came to the conclusion the crown corporation was staring at losing a BILLION dollars by 2020. Thats when theystarted to lay off unnecessary employees and jacked prices on stamps and some other services in order to get their business even somewhat in order.

http://www.conferenceboard.ca/e-libr....aspx?did=5443

The writing is on the wall. they are a dinosaur and only exist right now because they are taxpayer propped.

Again though the biggest problem is the government should NOT be in the business of competing with private industry. It's insane and counter productive.

I will agree that in some instances maybe CP should still be around to service areas that may not be reachable by other for profit companies, but beyond that they dont deserve any special treatment over and above what the private sector has to deal with.

Utopian society? Everything I've posted has been with the interest of both the workers and the employer in mind. As far as society is concerned, society flourishes when the economy does

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

This is a race to the bottom mentality. Instead of the private sector unionizing and demanding better benefits and pensions, it seems we clamor to try and take away the rights and benefits that were bargained for by others.

How many times have we seen workers fixated on that only to see companies go under because it's no longer financial viable to stay in operation. Sometimes you have to take cuts to pay and benefits to keep your job.

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by Dion

How many times have we seen workers fixated on that only to see companies go under because it's no longer financial viable to stay in operation. Sometimes you have to take cuts to pay and benefits to keep your job.

Well, that's a wonderfully spurious argument, equally vague with no substance. Canada Post is a profitable company and will likely become even more profitable now with the surge of online purchasing. Until the private sector agrees to cover the entire country without gouging small communities, Canada Posts mandate must continue.

Why should workers take concessions when the business is doing well?

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

Well, that's a wonderfully spurious argument, equally vague with no substance. Canada Post is a profitable company and will likely become even more profitable now with the surge of online purchasing. Until the private sector agrees to cover the entire country without gouging small communities, Canada Posts mandate must continue.

Why should workers take concessions when the business is doing well?

then Canada Post should service only those communities that aren't covered by the private sector and quit competing with private enterprise...then their mandate would make some sense.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

The workers aren't the ones pushing a strike here

Right and the union was never going to strike?

The employer has the right to lockout employees in an effort to get them to accept a contract. It's no different than the employees striking to get the employer to agree to their demands. In this case the employer is forcing the issue on their terms as opposed to the union choosing a date where they think they can hurt he employer the most.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

Race to the bottom continues. More decent paying jobs at risk, and so many here so quick to clamor and say "lock em out and have businesses bid on it". Great, now we can have people on minimum wage delivering and sorting out mail. What can go wrong?

I'd love to see some of your reactions if someone came in to your place of work and offered to do your job for minimum wage. But I guess everyone here is a Doctor or Lawyer right? Everyone here is completely irreplaceable?

I just wanted to comment on this because its a conversation I have with my kids. I understand the sentiment that people in minimum wage jobs work really hard (I worked for minimum wage for years!) I get that people want things done cheap but to me it does come down to how replaceable you are and what skills you bring to the job. I've delivered flyers, had a paper route as a child and was paid horribly for both of those jobs, literally because anyone can do it. That's how things work in the world though. Top athletes get paid top dollars because they can do things that not many others can do. Same with top lawyers, doctors and entertainers. Basically that is how things work in any field; if you're not replaceable or not easily replaceable then you command a larger salary and better benefits and perquisites.

I'm not sure why the post office is above that either. Is it important that we get our packages and mail? Sure. Should we pay a great wage, full benefits and DB pension for that service for people...well I guess that is debateable in my mind.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Dion

Right and the union was never going to strike?

The employer has the right to lockout employees in an effort to get them to accept a contract. It's no different than the employees striking to get the employer to agree to their demands. In this case the employer is forcing the issue on their terms as opposed to the union choosing a date where they think they can hurt he employer the most.

They can strike if they choose to, however not every round of bargaining ends with a labour dispute, workers typically don't want to strike, because well you know, they don't get paid they're regular wages and ca never fully recoup that. If you want to say they get strike pay, I hope you've done your homework to see that that is less than ei. Striking is a last resort.

In this case Canada post did not even give all their proposals to the union, with how you put it, essentially guaranteeing a strike, the same argument could be made that the union was going to agree with all their proposals once received. We will never know in either case, for either of us to make any statements based on best guesses and put them forward as likely outcomes is fairly pointless. Sticking with the facts, the company is doing well, yet they seem to not want to negotiate with their employees.