Marc-Andre Fleury as a Flame ?? could this be the Goaltender we get this summer ?

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

You're so confident that Gillies is the guy - after 6 pro games - that this is a senseless worry?

I admire your confidence, but I would prefer to see better risk management than that.

I think Gillies is a fabulous prospect, but having your future bet on one guy, and just assuming he will fill the role, is straight from the Oiler school of management.

no he is not a sure thing, not even close..who is though? whats your plan?

We should just take the next 3 years off considering the flames can't compete

[T-Dog]

What I like about MAF is that he's been around winning teams (just the opposite with Reimer). What the Flames need right now is stability in goal and with MAF we'd be getting a proven veteran that has won and has had good numbers recently over the course of a full season (again, unlike Reimer who I don't think has played over 40 games). The Flames don't need a Vezina winner to continue their development, they need a good, stable goalie (with a history of winning being an added intangible) that can give the team confidence so the young guys can continue on an upward trajectory. A big part of what undermined last season was the uncertainty in net.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by T-Dog

What I like about MAF is that he's been around winning teams (just the opposite with Reimer). What the Flames need right now is stability in goal and with MAF we'd be getting a proven veteran that has won and has had good numbers recently over the course of a full season (again, unlike Reimer who I don't think has played over 40 games). The Flames don't need a Vezina winner to continue their development, they need a good, stable goalie (with a history of winning being an added intangible) that can give the team confidence so the young guys can continue on an upward trajectory. A big part of what undermined last season was the uncertainty in net.

What I don't like about MAF is that he's been around winning teams and has consistently failed to get them anywhere. I mean a team that has Crosby and Malkin on it, and he wins one cup? Pretty hard to believe that is possible. What the Flames need right now is stability in goal and with MAF we'd be getting a proven veteran that has put up good statistical numbers over the course of a full season, but has been inconsistent in his performance. He's hot one month, and is unbeatable. The next month he's shakey as hell and makes you wonder if he can stop a beach ball. The Flames don't need a Vezina winner to continue their development, they need a good, stable goalie that can give the team confidence so the young guys can continue on an upward trajectory. Unfortunately, that isn't MA Fleury.

[GranteedEV]

What I like about MAF is that he's been around Crosby, Malkin, and Letang, and that will give us an edge in next year's SCF.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

It's like this.

Team A allows 50 shots from dangerous scoring areas and 50 shots from less dangerous scoring areas.

Team B allows 40 shots from dangerous scoring areas and 60 shots from less dangerous scoring areas.

Team B's goalie is expected to have better percentages and appears better at stopping pucks. But is he really? Maybe, and maybe not.

You just want to be able to filter out whether a goalie's save percentage is good because he's stopping a lot of dangerous shots, or because he's not facing as many. Focusing on performance in dangerous scoring areas is more predictive when talking about different teams.

I don't know man. Crappy goalies have larger "high danger zones" where any shot can go in (ala Hiller). The Flames as a team faced the 11th least shots against and were dead last in GAA last season. All that tells you is you need an upgrade in goal.

I don't see how that predicts anything.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

I don't know man. Crappy goalies have larger "high danger zones" where any shot can go in (ala Hiller). The Flames as a team faced the 11th least shots against and were dead last in GAA last season. All that tells you is you need an upgrade in goal.

I don't see how that predicts anything.

Accounting for shot type/location/angle doesn't mean you're taking any data out of the analysis. It just means you're leveling the playing field for evaluation so you can compare apples-to-apples as much as is possible with the data you have.

I don't see how that predicts anything.

Goalies with high home plate save percentages are more consistent than goalies whose home plate save percentages aren't great even if their save percentage is.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanFromBC

Better question would be "Who would you rather?"

MA Fleury at 5.75M cap hit + asset cost to acquire or James Reimer at UFA contract cost (~$6M)?

Reimer won't get 6. If Reimer wants to start he has 2 options, go back to Toronto or sign with Calgary, that severely hampers his leverage. Cam Ward staying in Carolina is the worst thing for Reimer.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Accounting for shot type/location/angle doesn't mean you're taking any data out of the analysis. It just means you're leveling the playing field for evaluation so you can compare apples-to-apples as much as is possible with the data you have.



Goalies with high home plate save percentages are more consistent than goalies whose home plate save percentages aren't great even if their save percentage is.

I'm not talking about taking out data, im accounting for it when any shot on net has a chance of going in. If the goalie stops the shots he should, the team improves. If the goalie lets in shots he should save (Flames) the team suffers.

I still don't get why this is some sort of revelation. The playing field is already level once the opponent gains the zone.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

I'm not talking about taking out data, im accounting for it when any shot on net has a chance of going in. If the goalie stops the shots he should, the team improves. If the goalie lets in shots he should save (Flames) the team suffers.

To the bolded - any shot on net has a chance of going in.
But that chance itself is not equal. Dangerous shots have a higher chance of going in. And the data shows that... they represent a vast majority of goals scored.

And since they have a higher chance of going in, the save percentage on them is naturally lower.

A goalie who faces more of these kinds of dangerous shots should have a lower save percentage than an equal goalie who faces less. A goalie who stops proportionally more of these kind of dangerous shots could have a lower save percentage than a goalie who faces less and stops proportionally less - simply because they are more dangerous.

I'm confused why this is even a point of contention. Even Burke buys in to it.

[Buff]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

What I like about MAF is that he's been around Crosby, Malkin, and Letang, and that will give us an edge in next year's SCF.

So you're saying the Flames and Pens would meet in the SCF if the Flames acquired Fleury?

That is a massive stretch. How can you even predict next year's SCF? For all we know Drouin and Stamkos become the modern day Hull and Oates. How will Fleury's knowledge of Sid & Geno help the Flames against Drouin and Stammer?

[AcGold]

Originally Posted by Buff

So you're saying the Flames and Pens would meet in the SCF if the Flames acquired Fleury?

That is a massive stretch. How can you even predict next year's SCF? For all we know Drouin and Stamkos become the modern day Hull and Oates. How will Fleury's knowledge of Sid & Geno help the Flames against Drouin and Stammer?

He was being facetious.

[Buff]

Originally Posted by AcGold

He was being facetious.

Go back and re-read my post.

[FlameZilla]

Originally Posted by New Era

What I don't like about MAF is that he's been around winning teams and has consistently failed to get them anywhere. I mean a team that has Crosby and Malkin on it, and he wins one cup? Pretty hard to believe that is possible. What the Flames need right now is stability in goal and with MAF we'd be getting a proven veteran that has put up good statistical numbers over the course of a full season, but has been inconsistent in his performance. He's hot one month, and is unbeatable. The next month he's shakey as hell and makes you wonder if he can stop a beach ball. The Flames don't need a Vezina winner to continue their development, they need a good, stable goalie that can give the team confidence so the young guys can continue on an upward trajectory. Unfortunately, that isn't MA Fleury.

So this year's cup doesn't count? I'm pretty certain his name is now engraved on two panels of the Stanley Cup.

I'll admit that Fleury isn't always the steadiest hand but to degrade his achievements because he happened to play with great players is a weak argument.

Fleury has won 2 more Cups than Reimer, the other goalie we'd be likely see Treliving courting. If he's affordable to acquire he's the best option available.

[Buff]

Originally Posted by FlameZilla

So this year's cup doesn't count? I'm pretty certain his name is now engraved on two panels of the Stanley Cup.

I'll admit that Fleury isn't always the steadiest hand but to degrade his achievements because he happened to play with great players is a weak argument.

Fleury has won 2 more Cups than Reimer, the other goalie we'd be likely see Treliving courting. If he's affordable to acquire he's the best option available.

He was definitely not along for the ride for the first cup. For the 2nd Cup he would have been a valuable resource as a backup and "mentor" to Murray.

Fleury's experience would be a great thing to have.

[Jason14h]

Pitts basically has to trade Fleury . He already stated in a very political correct way he wants to starts and it sucks loosing his job .

This guy has been nothing but a professional for Pitts and they are not going to have him sit on the bench as a backup at 32 years old IF there is any opportunity that a team will give him a starting gig.

Add in the cap hit, and the only question is cost .

I honestly believe he could be has for a 2nd round pick plus a salary dump the other way.

What about Raymond and Dallas 2nd and a conditional pick (Based on Fleurys performance) for Fleury

This helps the Flames cap wise this year and gets Pitts out from under this situation.

If Fleury does not work out you can always expose him in the expansion draft and cross our fingers.

Heck Pitts may even be willing to eat a million of the contract to move him

[CliffFletcher]

Fleury is also a team leader and the best-liked guy in the Pens dressing room. The kind of player who is a real asset to a young team.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

Reimer won't get 6. If Reimer wants to start he has 2 options, go back to Toronto or sign with Calgary, that severely hampers his leverage. Cam Ward staying in Carolina is the worst thing for Reimer.

I've seen this sort of post regarding Reimer having no leverage a lot, but it goes both ways. Reimer's agent will tell either of those 2 GM's that if they want to go the route of UFA and not pay out any assets ,that he is the only UFA on the list worth considering as a starter. He would not be wrong. There is no other goalie on the UFA list that i can see being a 1a goalie ( that's if you even can count Reimer as a 1a goalie).

I don't think Reimer will get $6 million. I do think his agent will be able to get him $5 million + on a 2/3 year deal if either of those teams mentioned are looking for a goalie come July 1st.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by FlameZilla

So this year's cup doesn't count? I'm pretty certain his name is now engraved on two panels of the Stanley Cup.

Not in my books. Yes, his name is on the cup, and should because of his contribution during the regular season, but that is not when a goaltender "wins" his cup. Fleury lost his job to a kid, and that kid did what Fleury has been incapable of doing all these years. So no, Fleury didn't win this cup for his team anmore than Rick Wamsley won the cup for the Calgary Flames.

I'll admit that Fleury isn't always the steadiest hand but to degrade his achievements because he happened to play with great players is a weak argument.

Disagree. That is the ultimate argument when discussing Fleury. He's always been weak in the head and he has shown it his whole career. When the pressure is on, Fleury folds. He did it in junior and he's done it in spade in the NHL. Like it or not, that is the book on the guy. Add in a $5.75M cap hit and it is really hard to see why anyone would want him.

Fleury has won 2 more Cups than Reimer, the other goalie we'd be likely see Treliving courting. If he's affordable to acquire he's the best option available.

There are other options out there that I think are attractive, but I'd be more inclined to go after Reimer than Fleury as well. I think he comes a lot cheaper, now that Ward has signed and is off the market. Should be a very interesting month for us Flames fans.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

I've seen this sort of post regarding Reimer having no leverage a lot, but it goes both ways. Reimer's agent will tell either of those 2 GM's that if they want to go the route of UFA and not pay out any assets ,that he is the only UFA on the list worth considering as a starter. He would not be wrong. There is no other goalie on the UFA list that i can see being a 1a goalie ( that's if you even can count Reimer as a 1a goalie).

I don't think Reimer will get $6 million. I do think his agent will be able to get him $5 million + on a 2/3 year deal if either of those teams mentioned are looking for a goalie come July 1st.

I doubt he gets 5 either. I'd bet he get about 4 million in a 3 year deal.

[bax]

Originally Posted by New Era

Not in my books. Yes, his name is on the cup, and should because of his contribution during the regular season, but that is not when a goaltender "wins" his cup. Fleury lost his job to a kid, and that kid did what Fleury has been incapable of doing all these years. So no, Fleury didn't win this cup for his team anmore than Rick Wamsley won the cup for the Calgary Flames.



Disagree. That is the ultimate argument when discussing Fleury. He's always been weak in the head and he has shown it his whole career. When the pressure is on, Fleury folds. He did it in junior and he's done it in spade in the NHL. Like it or not, that is the book on the guy. Add in a $5.75M cap hit and it is really hard to see why anyone would want him.



There are other options out there that I think are attractive, but I'd be more inclined to go after Reimer than Fleury as well. I think he comes a lot cheaper, now that Ward has signed and is off the market. Should be a very interesting month for us Flames fans.

Yeah because the mid season coaching change and and new found defensive accountability didn't help the team at all.

It's easy to say Fleury is mentally weak, but the fact remains that he is still a high quality goalie and an excellent teammate. He has also gotten much better since he started working with a sports psychiatrist. Would love to have him for a cheap price