Islam critic in hiding after death-threats; went too far?

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Religion obviously had a role to play in WWII. I mean really, they were killing millions of people based on their religion, so to say it was not fought over religion isn't entirely true.

What question am I not answering?

Hitler wasn't religous. He killed Jews because he thought that they controlled most of the finances and businesses in much of Europe. He believed that they were the cause of all the problems in Germany.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Hitler wasn't religous. He killed Jews because he thought that they controlled most of the finances and businesses in much of Europe. He believed that they were the cause of all the problems in Germany.

Not quite true...

Adolf Hitler was brought up in his family's religion by his Roman Catholic parents.

In public statements, especially at the beginning of his rule, Hitler frequently spoke positively about the Christian heritage of German culture and his belief in the "Aryan" Christ. In doing so, he used his "ability to simulate, even to potentially critical Church leaders, an image of a leader keen to uphold and protect Christianity.

Mein Kampf displays a more ambivalent attitude. In an attempt to justify Nazi intolerance he recommends militantism, which he associates with Christianity's rise to Roman state religion, as a model for the Nazis in their pursuit of power, while simultaneously lamenting the demise of Paganism.

Joseph Goebbels, for example, notes in a diary entry in 1939: "The Führer is deeply religious, but deeply anti-Christian. He regards Christianity as a symptom of decay." Albert Speer reports a similar statement: “You see, it’s been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn’t we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"In the Hossbach Memorandum Hitler is recorded as saying that "only the disintegrating effect of Christianity, and the symptoms of age" were responsible for the demise of the Roman empire

Hitlers Religious beliefs

Hitlers religious views

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Hitler wasn't religous. He killed Jews because he thought that they controlled most of the finances and businesses in much of Europe. He believed that they were the cause of all the problems in Germany.

Hey you can justify it all you want. Religion played a part in that war. So did ideology, fanaticism, money, land, power, psychosis and whatever other reason you want to bring up. What's the difference?

The point is, "we" good sensible Christians can be just as crazy, and probably crazier, than anyone else.

A small number of dimwitted fanatics have pulled an old book out and are using it as justification to kill people. Someone asked if this is the first time it has happened. Obviously it is not.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Hitler wasn't religous. He killed Jews because he thought that they controlled most of the finances and businesses in much of Europe. He believed that they were the cause of all the problems in Germany.

Actually....

Hitler killed jews because he believed them to be an inferior race. It had nothing to do w/ their religion. He believed non-aryan races were all flawed and these flaws drove them to do awful things. Hitler targeted all minorities not just jews.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by blankall

Actually....

Hitler killed jews because he believed them to be an inferior race. It had nothing to do w/ their religion. He believed non-aryan races were all flawed and these flaws drove them to do awful things. Hitler targeted all minorities not just jews.

Again only partially true....and maybe not even a good percentage.

In choosing to use anti-Semitism as a tool in his drive for political power, Hitler singled out the Jews of Germany as scapegoats.
According to Hitler, the Jews were to blame for Germany's social and economic problems. He counted on the fact that there had been many long years of religious prejudice against Jews in the minds of the German people; but he counted even more on a new form of anti-Semitism called racism.
Racism is the belief that race determines human abilities and qualities, making some groups inferior and some superior. This idea was widespread in Hitler's time. What made racism so convincing in Hitler's propaganda was the fact that the peoples of the world may indeed be divided into several races, each with its own physical characteristics.
Hitler claimed that each race had its own particular blood. He warned of the dangers of allowing these blood strains to be mixed. Hitler and some of the scientists of his day also claimed that a person's blood controlled his or her personality; one kind of blood would make a person criminal, or cruel, or unintelligent. Another kind of blood made a person noble and pure. And, according to Hitler, the highest type was the Aryan blood of the German race.

Yep he mentioned inferiority in Mein Kampf...but it was based on prejudice.

Anti-Semitism as a tool

[Ayrahb]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Yep he mentioned inferiority in Mein Kampf...but it was based on prejudice.

Anti-Semitism as a tool

I would add to that reading examples of pre-Holocaust propaganda: http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/g...ra.htm#Antisem

On a different note: My somewhat incoherent post earlier may have painted the wrong picture about what I wanted to say. Let me call that poorly worded and thought out post "Benedict". I will be happy to continue that line of discussion a bit later.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Again only partially true....and maybe not even a good percentage.

In choosing to use anti-Semitism as a tool in his drive for political power, Hitler singled out the Jews of Germany as scapegoats.
According to Hitler, the Jews were to blame for Germany's social and economic problems. He counted on the fact that there had been many long years of religious prejudice against Jews in the minds of the German people; but he counted even more on a new form of anti-Semitism called racism.
Racism is the belief that race determines human abilities and qualities, making some groups inferior and some superior. This idea was widespread in Hitler's time. What made racism so convincing in Hitler's propaganda was the fact that the peoples of the world may indeed be divided into several races, each with its own physical characteristics.
Hitler claimed that each race had its own particular blood. He warned of the dangers of allowing these blood strains to be mixed. Hitler and some of the scientists of his day also claimed that a person's blood controlled his or her personality; one kind of blood would make a person criminal, or cruel, or unintelligent. Another kind of blood made a person noble and pure. And, according to Hitler, the highest type was the Aryan blood of the German race.

Yep he mentioned inferiority in Mein Kampf...but it was based on prejudice.

Anti-Semitism as a tool

I dont see how this contradicts what I said... He focused a lot of energy on jews, mostly because they were the largest minority. Although most lived in ghettos many had high positions in society. He also targeted Gypsies specifically. The Romas for instance felt huge losses.

My point was hitler shoudlnt really enter into this conversation since he was concerned w/ race not religion when talking about jews.

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Johnny,
I think you can draw a pretty strong basis for religious issues in WW2 by simply looking at the extermination of millions of "Jewish" people by a "Catholic" Hitler. Was it the reason the War was fought...or was it one of the main issues of WW2? Maybe. Maybe not....but MILLIONS were killed based on their faith and race.

Cheese, come on now. Their were killed based purely on preceived racial abilities or lack of them.

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Religion obviously had a role to play in WWII. I mean really, they were killing millions of people based on their religion, so to say it was not fought over religion isn't entirely true.

What question am I not answering?

Entirely BS and you know it. They did not ask the Jews when they rounded them up if they were still worshipping yahweh. You are insulting the victims of the holocaust by inferring that they had some sort of choice of wether or not they went to the concentration camps or not. This was not a 'convert or die' proposition and you know it. You should own up to that.

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Not quite true...

Adolf Hitler was brought up in his family's religion by his Roman Catholic parents.

In public statements, especially at the beginning of his rule, Hitler frequently spoke positively about the Christian heritage of German culture and his belief in the "Aryan" Christ. In doing so, he used his "ability to simulate, even to potentially critical Church leaders, an image of a leader keen to uphold and protect Christianity.

Mein Kampf displays a more ambivalent attitude. In an attempt to justify Nazi intolerance he recommends militantism, which he associates with Christianity's rise to Roman state religion, as a model for the Nazis in their pursuit of power, while simultaneously lamenting the demise of Paganism.

Joseph Goebbels, for example, notes in a diary entry in 1939: "The Führer is deeply religious, but deeply anti-Christian. He regards Christianity as a symptom of decay." Albert Speer reports a similar statement: “You see, it’s been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn’t we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"In the Hossbach Memorandum Hitler is recorded as saying that "only the disintegrating effect of Christianity, and the symptoms of age" were responsible for the demise of the Roman empire

Hitlers Religious beliefs

Hitlers religious views

Cheese, this does little for your quest to villify any and all religion. They specifically reference Christianity as an obstacle in having the people do Hitler's will. That is a bad thing in your opinion? At the very least they had a cynical view of religion and only used it as a means of controlling the people.

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Again only partially true....and maybe not even a good percentage.

In choosing to use anti-Semitism as a tool in his drive for political power, Hitler singled out the Jews of Germany as scapegoats.
According to Hitler, the Jews were to blame for Germany's social and economic problems. He counted on the fact that there had been many long years of religious prejudice against Jews in the minds of the German people; but he counted even more on a new form of anti-Semitism called racism.
Racism is the belief that race determines human abilities and qualities, making some groups inferior and some superior. This idea was widespread in Hitler's time. What made racism so convincing in Hitler's propaganda was the fact that the peoples of the world may indeed be divided into several races, each with its own physical characteristics.
Hitler claimed that each race had its own particular blood. He warned of the dangers of allowing these blood strains to be mixed. Hitler and some of the scientists of his day also claimed that a person's blood controlled his or her personality; one kind of blood would make a person criminal, or cruel, or unintelligent. Another kind of blood made a person noble and pure. And, according to Hitler, the highest type was the Aryan blood of the German race.

Yep he mentioned inferiority in Mein Kampf...but it was based on prejudice.

Anti-Semitism as a tool

Reach!

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by White Doors

Entirely BS and you know it. They did not ask the Jews when they rounded them up if they were still worshipping yahweh. You are insulting the victims of the holocaust by inferring that they had some sort of choice of wether or not they went to the concentration camps or not. This was not a 'convert or die' proposition and you know it. You should own up to that.

First off Rouge never suggested that the Germans were asking them to convert...and neither was I. He was suggesting that religion "did" have some influence. That cant be refuted. Jewish people follow the Jewish religion plain and simple. In fact its the only religion named after a race.

[JohnnyFlame]

Farfetched or what. A "Catholic" Hitler goes on the rampage and causes World War II. Man talk about desperate anti-religious proponents. Hitler and his crew were hardly Catholic or Christian by any stretch of the imagination. More like they spouted any garbage they felt like to justify what was the usual goal -- CONQUEST.

Classifying WWII as a Christian Holy War is ridiculous. Hitler plunked plenty of actual Christians into death camps.

Hitler was an idiot whom the Western World knew about and as usual lacked the guts to deal with till they were forced to. Had zip to do with religion and everything to do with human nature.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by White Doors

Entirely BS and you know it. They did not ask the Jews when they rounded them up if they were still worshipping yahweh. You are insulting the victims of the holocaust by inferring that they had some sort of choice of wether or not they went to the concentration camps or not. This was not a 'convert or die' proposition and you know it. You should own up to that.

Laugh. Nice try.

Own up to what? I haven't said nor do I believe anything you said in that post. Show me where I "inferred" any of that and I'll own up to it. Good luck.

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by Cheese

First off Rouge never suggested that the Germans were asking them to convert...and neither was I. He was suggesting that religion "did" have some influence. That cant be refuted. Jewish people follow the Jewish religion plain and simple. In fact its the only religion named after a race.

But they were not persecuted of their religious beliefs but because of ethnicity.

FACT

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlame

Farfetched or what. A "Catholic" Hitler goes on the rampage and causes World War II. Man talk about desperate anti-religious proponents. Hitler and his crew were hardly Catholic or Christian by any stretch of the imagination. More like they spouted any garbage they felt like to justify what was the usual goal -- CONQUEST.

Classifying WWII as a Christian Holy War is ridiculous. Hitler plunked plenty of actual Christians into death camps.

Hitler was an idiot whom the Western World knew about and as usual lacked the guts to deal with till they were forced to. Had zip to do with religion and everything to do with human nature.

Who said it was a Christian Holy War? Religion played a role in WWII. That is all anyone has said. If you refuse to agree that the holocaust was at all about religion (a coincidence, I guess) then what about all those good Christian boys defending God and country? Religion clearly played a role in training the soldiers. Those Japanese blokes were promised a little more than a fiery finish when they were crashing their planes into boats.

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Laugh. Nice try.

Own up to what? I haven't said nor do I believe anything you said in that post. Show me where I "inferred" any of that and I'll own up to it. Good luck.

Religion is a personal choice and ethnicity is not.
By indicating that religion was behind WW2 (what an asinine atatement) and ergo the concentration camps, you inferred that there was a choice to be made. Something akin to the witch hunts in your mind, I suppose.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by White Doors

By indicating that religion was behind WW2 (what an asinine atatement)

If it's so assinine then quit saying it. You and Johnny are now making that claim, but nobody else did, as far as I remember.

Multiple Choice Time

Religion did not play a role in WWII.

A)True
B) False

What is your answer?

[JohnnyFlame]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Who said it was a Christian Holy War? Religion played a role in WWII. That is all anyone has said. If you refuse to agree that the holocaust was at all about religion (a coincidence, I guess) then what about all those good Christian boys defending God and country? Religion clearly played a role in training the soldiers. Those Japanese blokes were promised a little more than a fiery finish when they were crashing their planes into boats.

Yep I very much would refute that the Holocaust had anything to do with religion. The Jewish people were picked as scapegoats -- no doubt a great many of them didn't even practice Judaism. Were they asked that before they were slaughtered? OF course not. Create an enemy and in a country suffering ecomonically here was a group doing well. Religion -- NOPE. Just the usual human nature components like greed and envy.

Don't know about you but I had relatives in both wars and they weren't remotely Christian and they went over there to defend our right to live as we want to --had zilch to do with God.

Sorry but religion played a mighty tiny role in that war. Insinuating hordes of Christians went off trying to conquer the world or not be conquered is just silly and without any logic. If you want the word some to be your byword then fine. Some as defined -- a meaningless subplot within a greater overall conflict then sure I'll give you "some"

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Cheese

First off Rouge never suggested that the Germans were asking them to convert...and neither was I. He was suggesting that religion "did" have some influence. That cant be refuted. Jewish people follow the Jewish religion plain and simple. In fact its the only religion named after a race.

not all jews practice "the jewish religion" (I assume you are reffering to judaism.) Ever heard of jews for jesus...

Hitler defined anyone w/ one jewish grandparent as jewish by race. It had absolutely nothing to do w/ religion. Many people who are a quarter jewish would be devout christians. Furthermore, if you read nazi and white nationalist philosophy much of it rejects christianity. Hitler's regime for instance did a lot of research into european religions that predated christianity, hence the swastica.