About 50 people killed at gay nightclub in Florida

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Hrm, good chart. Here is the link to the actual data. After reading that maybe it's not as bad as we think.

http://crimeresearch.org/2015/06/com...us-and-europe/

The chart isn't good and the only thing worse is the article.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by blankall

When you actually break down deaths on a per capita basis, US deaths from mass shootings are relatively low:



Obviously this chart doesn't include the most recent events of this year.

Where the US exceeds other Western nations is total gun deaths. This is largely due to gang violence and suicides.

darn socialists

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

The chart isn't good and the only thing worse is the article.

care to elaborate? Not disagreeing, genuinely curious.

[Dan02]

Originally Posted by blankall

Uhh something didn't look right with the data so I went and took a look. And they have selectively excluded (ignored?) massive chunk of the data.

If you go to their site they only have 4 mass shootings listed resulting in 37 deaths in 2015.

June 17, 2015 South Carolina Charleston 9 killed
July 16, 2015 Tennessee Chattanooga 6 killed
October 1, 2015 Oregon Roseburg 10 killed
December 2, 2015 California San Bernardino 16 killed

Here is the complete list or as complete list i could find, for only 2015, I apoligize for the lack of formatting.

January 9, 2015 California San Francisco 4 killed
February 22, 2015 Texas Killeen 4 killed
February 26, 2015 Missouri Tyrone 8 killed
March 24, 2015 Indiana Indianapolis 4 killed
April 16, 2015 Arizona Phoenix 5 killed
May 3, 2015 Wisconsin Menasha 4 killed
May 12, 2015 Arizona Tucson 5 killed
May 17, 2015 Texas Waco 9 killed
June 7, 2015 Montana Deer Lodge 5 killed
June 13, 2015 Ohio Columbus 4 killed
June 17, 2015 South Carolina Charleston 9 killed
July 15, 2015 South Carolina Holly Hill 4 killed
July 16, 2015 Tennessee Chattanooga 6 killed
July 22, 2015 Georgia Suwanee 5 killed
August 7, 2015 Vermont Barre (Berlin) 4 killed
August 8, 2015 Texas Houston 8 killed
September 10, 2015 Minnesota Excelsior (Greenwood) 5 killed
September 17, 2015 South Dakota Platte 6 killed
October 1, 2015 Oregon Roseburg 10 killed
November 2, 2015 South Carolina Pendleton 4 killed
November 13, 2015 Florida Jacksonville 4 killed
November 15, 2015 Texas Tennessee Colony 5 killed
December 2, 2015 California San Bernardino 16 killed

138 people killed over 23 incidents rather then 37 over 4. I guess when you ignore 75% of the American deaths the numbers don't look that bad for the US.

[DiracSpike]

Gahh it's so obvious that easy access to military grade weaponry is the reason behind all this it's pretty much beyond the point of discussion. I wish the gun advocates in the States would just be intellectually honest without trying to manipulate some BS data or come up with some campy "guns dont kill people" or "outlawing means only outlaws will have guns" catchphrase. Just admit that for whatever reason you like owning high powered guns, and people getting killed isn't going to change how much you like guns.

Sometimes I wish I lived in the US but the absence of this debate in Canada is a huge plus for our country.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

care to elaborate? Not disagreeing, genuinely curious.

For one thing, they start by quoting comments by Obama and Reid about the frequency of these incidents, then tried to refute those claims by using an entirely different set of criteria - death rate per million people instead of number of incidents - and then compound the disingenuous nature of the comparison by cherry picking the same data with a specific period of time. They then double down by cherry picking a second time by using some unknown definition of "public shooting".

According to the mass shooting tracker, 287 people have died in mass shootings in the US this year. Given the population estimate of 324 million, that brings us to 0.885 deaths per million people for one half of 2016 alone. That they created a twisted set of data that tries to argue the actual rate was one tenth that rate over a period 12 times longer tells you what you need to know about the validity of this chart.

BTW, using their figures, that six year span put Canada at 1 death and two mass shootings. Two mass shootings in Canada over that span, and they format the chart to try and make Canada appear comparable to the American situation.

[Dan02]

You forgot the part where they choose which European countries to list and which to ignore, hey lets have France but not their neighboors Spain and Portugal. Lets add the Netherlands and Belgium but ignore Denmark. Why not Finland and Norway but exclude Sweden? Let's also exclude the other first world nations like say Australia, New Zealand and Japan.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Dan02

It's downright crazy down there, these days you don't even get a mention unless you hit double digits or it's a celebrity.

http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/re...hooting?page=1

how many of these were you even aware of?

I think someone else said it best, the US is a country at war with itself.

As per that website, in the last 72 hours there have been 319 shootings in the US.

And apparently even that isn't a complete list.

Unfortunately, we must limit result sets for the general public.

[foshizzle11]

I am not sure if this has been posted yet. It is pretty sick that people still have views such as these and post these videos on YouTube. A pastor from Arizona after the attack on Sunday posted a YouTube video to state his opinion on the event.

Here is a quote from the video:

‘The good news is that there’s 50 less pedophiles in this world, because, you know, these homosexuals are a bunch of disgusting perverts and pedophiles,’ Anderson said in the video. ‘That’s who was a victim here, are a bunch of just disgusting homosexuals at a gay bar, OK?’

and this one:

‘The Bible says that homosexuals should be put to death… obviously it’s not right for somebody to just shoot up the place because that’s not going through the proper channels,’ he said. ‘But these people all should have been killed anyway but they should have been killed through the proper channels as in they should have been executed by a righteous government.’

Here is the source link.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/tr...lled-rant.html

Just so sickening.

[PsYcNeT]

It’s An Honor To Continue Being Valued Over Countless Human Lives

by An AR-15

http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/its...less-hum-53094

You see, I’m just a humble lightweight, magazine-fed semi-automatic rifle; I never expected this kind of outpouring of affection.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by foshizzle11

I am not sure if this has been posted yet. It is pretty sick that people still have views such as these and post these videos on YouTube. A pastor from Arizona after the attack on Sunday posted a YouTube video to state his opinion on the event.

I don't even think it's guys like this that are the problem. Everyone knows he's a moron, lunatic, idiot. It's the more subtle Christian paradigm that is the real problem...the rhetoric that goes like this "I love all homosexuals. I just disagree with their lifestyle choices cause in Leviticus blah blah. But that doesn't mean I won't pray for them before they go to hell". Those types are worse.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Dan02

Uhh something didn't look right with the data so I went and took a look. And they have selectively excluded (ignored?) massive chunk of the data.

If you go to their site they only have 4 mass shootings listed resulting in 37 deaths in 2015.

June 17, 2015 South Carolina Charleston 9 killed
July 16, 2015 Tennessee Chattanooga 6 killed
October 1, 2015 Oregon Roseburg 10 killed
December 2, 2015 California San Bernardino 16 killed

Here is the complete list or as complete list i could find, for only 2015, I apoligize for the lack of formatting.

January 9, 2015 California San Francisco 4 killed
February 22, 2015 Texas Killeen 4 killed
February 26, 2015 Missouri Tyrone 8 killed
March 24, 2015 Indiana Indianapolis 4 killed
April 16, 2015 Arizona Phoenix 5 killed
May 3, 2015 Wisconsin Menasha 4 killed
May 12, 2015 Arizona Tucson 5 killed
May 17, 2015 Texas Waco 9 killed
June 7, 2015 Montana Deer Lodge 5 killed
June 13, 2015 Ohio Columbus 4 killed
June 17, 2015 South Carolina Charleston 9 killed
July 15, 2015 South Carolina Holly Hill 4 killed
July 16, 2015 Tennessee Chattanooga 6 killed
July 22, 2015 Georgia Suwanee 5 killed
August 7, 2015 Vermont Barre (Berlin) 4 killed
August 8, 2015 Texas Houston 8 killed
September 10, 2015 Minnesota Excelsior (Greenwood) 5 killed
September 17, 2015 South Dakota Platte 6 killed
October 1, 2015 Oregon Roseburg 10 killed
November 2, 2015 South Carolina Pendleton 4 killed
November 13, 2015 Florida Jacksonville 4 killed
November 15, 2015 Texas Tennessee Colony 5 killed
December 2, 2015 California San Bernardino 16 killed

138 people killed over 23 incidents rather then 37 over 4. I guess when you ignore 75% of the American deaths the numbers don't look that bad for the US.

I feel like I'm arguing a bit on the wrong side here, as I'm actually pro-gun restriction

However, many of the shootings you've cited involve people killing family members and acquaintances. These wouldn't qualify under "public" shootings. IF you're going to start looking at these kinds of murders, you widely broaden the scope of what you're looking at. You've listed multiple homicides, which is also contributed to by lax gun laws, but different than the narrower category of mass public shootings.

[ResAlien]

That one must clearly distinguish between which particular type of mass shooting one is referring to seems to be a smidge troubling. Friggin America.

[PsYcNeT]

Why even qualify a difference between a public and a "private" mass shooting? It's still a nominal amount of people getting shot at once. That's terrifying. It shouldn't matter how, uh, discriminate the shooter is being.

[jammies]

But if you get rid of the gang shootings, family shootings, accidental shootings, and shootings by enraged ex-lovers and ex-spouses, there's hardly a gun problem at all!

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by blankall

I feel like I'm arguing a bit on the wrong side here, as I'm actually pro-gun restriction

However, many of the shootings you've cited involve people killing family members and acquaintances. These wouldn't qualify under "public" shootings. IF you're going to start looking at these kinds of murders, you widely broaden the scope of what you're looking at. You've listed multiple homicides, which is also contributed to by lax gun laws, but different than the narrower category of mass public shootings.

Yeah, I essentially agree with this. I do think it's meaningful when we're talking about things like assault-weapons bans and such, to look at how someone behaves if they are intending to kill some members of a particular household, vs. going out to try to cause the maximum amount of carnage. That's not to diminish other gun crimes, which obviously account for far more deaths overall than these mass public shootings, but for any meaningful discussion of trying to prevent these events, you need to zero in on the right data so that you can find the correlating factors (of which both possible mental health issues and assault weapons are strong but not universal parts of the equation, while illegally obtaining firearms is not part of the equation), which often become lost if you increase the data to, say, any shooting in which 4 or more people are killed.

I do think that Motherjones has a good approach with their database:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...-shootings-map

[edslunch]

So many contributors to mass killings like this but surely one of the biggest is that going out in a blaze of glory has become a thing. For radical Islamists it is to go out in the glory of God, for most cases in the U.S. it's going out in a final burst of rage about the shooters' personal situation

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by edslunch

So many contributors to mass killings like this but surely one of the biggest is that going out in a blaze of glory has become a thing. For radical Islamists it is to go out in the glory of God, for most cases in the U.S. it's going out in a final burst of rage about the shooters' personal situation

Presumably getting mad that he wasn't getting the action on grinder he was hoping for.

[Dan02]

Originally Posted by octothorp

Yeah, I essentially agree with this. I do think it's meaningful when we're talking about things like assault-weapons bans and such, to look at how someone behaves if they are intending to kill some members of a particular household, vs. going out to try to cause the maximum amount of carnage. That's not to diminish other gun crimes, which obviously account for far more deaths overall than these mass public shootings, but for any meaningful discussion of trying to prevent these events, you need to zero in on the right data so that you can find the correlating factors (of which both possible mental health issues and assault weapons are strong but not universal parts of the equation, while illegally obtaining firearms is not part of the equation), which often become lost if you increase the data to, say, any shooting in which 4 or more people are killed.

I do think that Motherjones has a good approach with their database:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...-shootings-map

Why do we have to zero in on just these events? What's wrong with trying to prevent ALL gun crimes?

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by Dan02

Why do we have to zero in on just these events? What's wrong with trying to prevent ALL gun crimes?

Nothing at all. But it depends on how practical you want to be. A lot of the NRA's strategy involves painting gun deaths in the US as this big, complex issue that you could never hope to tackle so why bother? But if you zero in on one element that people care most about, you pass real legislation aimed at it, and you're quantifiably successful at reducing it, then maybe that's something that, over a generation, begins to change attitudes about widespread gun control in the US.