__________________ "We are no longer living. We are empty of substance, and our head devours us. Our ancestors were more alive. Nothing separated them from themselves."
But what can Obama do? Seriously anything resembling changes to gun laws are immediately blocked in Congress. Even something as simple as making sure people on terrorist watch lists can't buy guns was blocked by Senate Republicans.
Look at Obama's face today. This is the 15th (!!!!!) time he's had to make a statement like this. Do you not think that if there was something/anything he could do he wouldn't have done it already?
Sorry, but if 20+ little kids getting mowed down the week before Christmas didn't change anything, then 50+ people getting killed in a gay bar won't do a lick either. We will get the same "Thoughts and Prayers" and then nothing will change. America is truly broken.
__________________
Watching the Oilers defend is like watching fire engines frantically rushing to the wrong fire
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to GirlySports For This Useful Post:
Obama pretty much said everything he could say after Oregon.
__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
Don't be obtuse, ISIS in Iraq was using left over munitions and their IED's were being built by ex Iraqi army munitions experts.
There aren't unexplored cluster bombs scattered around the U.S.
I am not looking to have an argument as it definitely isn't the thread for it. I just want to clear up something as it seems like you are implying that IED's can only be made by experts with unexploded US munitions.
It very much is possible to make an IED without any kind of military grade explosive. Most of the IED's being produced by the taliban used ammonia nitrate or more recently potassium chlorate. These homemade bombs were extremely hard to detect because they were made and transported inside the same blue water jugs that you take camping. Also the same jug that every Afghani citizen carries around their towns. As one of my good friends who had his leg taken off by one in Afghanistan found out (and he was an explosives expert)
Really though at the end of the day this incident is a tragedy in so many ways. Unfortunately I don't see the US fixing their gun control issues any time soon. All I'm saying is that if someone was motivated enough it would be quite easy to make some sort of IED. Would the use of them increase if guns were banned? Who knows.
I don't see the ISIS link. The fact he yelled ISIS means nothing. He wasn't ISIS trained. A white guy tried the same thing in California and thank goodness it failed. If it has been successful we wouldn't be yelling terrorism.
__________________
Watching the Oilers defend is like watching fire engines frantically rushing to the wrong fire
We sure as hell would if he declared that he'd converted and was doing what he was doing for the glory of Allah. As numerous white people have done. If Adam Gadahn shot up a gay bar, you'd better believe people would blame jihadism, and rightly goddamn so.
Why do we refuse to believe people when they tell us, often with their dying breaths, why they're doing what they're doing?
__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to CorsiHockeyLeague For This Useful Post:
But what can Obama do? Seriously anything resembling changes to gun laws are immediately blocked in Congress. Even something as simple as making sure people on terrorist watch lists can't buy guns was blocked by Senate Republicans.
Look at Obama's face today. This is the 15th (!!!!!) time he's had to make a statement like this. Do you not think that if there was something/anything he could do he wouldn't have done it already?
Sorry, but if 20+ little kids getting mowed down the week before Christmas didn't change anything, then 50+ people getting killed in a gay bar won't do a lick either. We will get the same "Thoughts and Prayers" and then nothing will change. America is truly broken.
Yup. Gun control will never happen here. Not with a two party government and a beloved constitution. One of the youngest and most powerful nations will implode and become a blink in the eye of history- all to defend a piece of paper signed by people who wore powdered wigs, stockings- and carried muskets.
The Following User Says Thank You to BigBrodieFan For This Useful Post:
We sure as hell would if he declared that he'd converted and was doing what he was doing for the glory of Allah. As numerous white people have done. If Adam Gadahn shot up a gay bar, you'd better believe people would blame jihadism, and rightly goddamn so.
Why do we refuse to believe people when they tell us, often with their dying breaths, why they're doing what they're doing?
Maybe he was a schizophrenic? Maybe he just plain crazy? Maybe he was lying? Maybe he did convert?
Who knows? I'm not sure why we should we take a person like this at their word though. Just because he said something doesn't mean he was telling the truth. No one will ever truly know what was going on in his head.
I don't see the ISIS link. The fact he yelled ISIS means nothing. He wasn't ISIS trained. A white guy tried the same thing in California and thank goodness it failed. If it has been successful we wouldn't be yelling terrorism.
I don't see this as ISIL planned. A lone gunman taking all the patrons hostage is not in line with terrorist attacks such a s Paris, London or Madrid
It is ISIL-linked only in the sense that a lone wolf mass casualty shooter was looking for a last minute chance to be be part of something greater that his angry, lonely existance had given him.
The Following User Says Thank You to para transit fellow For This Useful Post:
Maybe he was a schizophrenic? Maybe he just plain crazy? Maybe he was lying? Maybe he did convert?
Who knows? I'm not sure why we should we take a person like this at their word though. Just because he said something doesn't mean he was telling the truth. No one will ever truly know what was going on in his head.
We only doubt peoples' word in this specific context. If a guy is murdered in his home, and his neighbour says he did it because he wanted to steal his money, or because he hated the guy, we don't doubt them for a moment. When a right-wing facist kills a black guy and says he did it for the glory of his race, we don't doubt him. When an evangelical blows an abortion doctor's head off with a shotgun, we don't doubt his motivations. Just here.
Now, maybe he was crazy, or a schizo. We don't know that. If the evidence comes out that that's the case, that there's good reason to disbelieve what his own account of his reasons are, that's one thing. But there's none. We have a guy who says he killed people in support of the Caliphate. The Caliphate endorses his actions in their name. This is one of the things they do - try to inspire lone-wolf attacks. They explicitly CALLED for those attacks during Ramadan this month, for believers to take matters into their own hands on US soil.
If there's a psychological failing here it's the refusal to accept what's right in front of you.
__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to CorsiHockeyLeague For This Useful Post:
How hard is it to understand that less guns and harder more stringent controls in place to get guns is a good thing? Make it harder for these people to get their hands, legally or illegally, on weapons such as these.
Police and military - only two groups that need guns. Someone said it though; the USA is a broken country. And it's going to get even more broken when Trump is elected.
__________________
But living an honest life - for that you need the truth. That's the other thing I learned that day, that the truth, however shocking or uncomfortable, leads to liberation and dignity. -Ricky Gervais
How hard is it to understand that less guns and harder more stringent controls in place to get guns is a good thing? Make it harder for these people to get their hands, legally or illegally, on weapons such as these.
Police and military - only two groups that need guns. Someone said it though; the USA is a broken country. And it's going to get even more broken when Trump is elected.
I'm interested to see how a President Trump would handle guns. He's less gun-friendly then the republican party in general. I mean Cruz was advocating arming everyone with guns and shooting back.
__________________
Watching the Oilers defend is like watching fire engines frantically rushing to the wrong fire
We only doubt peoples' word in this specific context. If a guy is murdered in his home, and his neighbour says he did it because he wanted to steal his money, or because he hated the guy, we don't doubt them for a moment. When a right-wing facist kills a black guy and says he did it for the glory of his race, we don't doubt him. When an evangelical blows an abortion doctor's head off with a shotgun, we don't doubt his motivations. Just here.
Now, maybe he was crazy, or a schizo. We don't know that. If the evidence comes out that that's the case, that there's good reason to disbelieve what his own account of his reasons are, that's one thing. But there's none. We have a guy who says he killed people in support of the Caliphate. The Caliphate endorses his actions in their name. This is one of the things they do - try to inspire lone-wolf attacks. They explicitly CALLED for those attacks during Ramadan this month, for believers to take matters into their own hands on US soil.
If there's a psychological failing here it's the refusal to accept what's right in front of you.
I'm willing to accept whatever the reason is... once it's proven. Not enough is known about this case at this time to draw any conclusions regarding motive either way IMO. He said some crap, he killed some people. That's all we know for now.
I do agree though, many people don't want to accept that religion, Islam in particular, could make someone do something like this, despite the fact that murdering in the name of religion has defined humanity for millennia. Maybe defined is the wrong word, but violence and religion have been part and parcel for so long that this shouldn't really surprise anyone. I guess the difference is that Christianity has *mostly* outgrown it's barbarism whereas Islam is still an unruly teenager as far as major religions go. People hear about it this kind of violence so often, and it is so hard to relate to as a westerner, that it can be eaiser for proclaim that they are all just crazy psychos. Obviously there is more nuance to it than that but the average person doesn't put a tremendous amount of thought into stuff like this. They get outraged and then they move on with their lives.
For whatever reason, Muslims aren't given the same benefit of the doubt that, say a Christian would. Some people say "it's just an excuse, they're just psychopaths", but I'm not sure how wide spread that line of thinking really is. It doesn't mean this guy wasn't crazy though.
When an evangelical blows an abortion doctor's head off with a shotgun, we don't doubt his motivations. Just here.
Except downplaying any possibly "Christian" motivation for a crime happens all. the. time.
Get a grip. Religion itself is the most questioned motivation. This isn't unique to Islam, you know that, don't let your bias get in the way of the truth.
I don't see the ISIS link. The fact he yelled ISIS means nothing. He wasn't ISIS trained. A white guy tried the same thing in California and thank goodness it failed. If it has been successful we wouldn't be yelling terrorism.
I think this is the chronic misunderstanding of how ISIL operates or potentially operates, but I think we have to wait for a bit for the investigation to happen before we can declare this or not declare this ISIL related.
The couple that went on a shooting spree weren't trained by ISIL, they weren't part of some formal cell, but they were communicating with ISIL through social media, and that's ISIL's goal.
They want to create cheap boutique terror where they can inspire people to kill in their name or declare their allegiance to ISIL.
Why we have to wait? Lets see who he was talking to.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Except downplaying any possibly "Christian" motivation for a crime happens all. the. time.
Get a grip. Religion itself is the most questioned motivation. This isn't unique to Islam, you know that, don't let your bias get in the way of the truth.
Give me one example. When has someone committed a violent act (killed someone, attacked an abortion clinic for example) and explicitly said that they did it for religious reasons based on their Christian beliefs, and then had everyone react with protestations of, "that's not really what motivated this person"? I can't think of a single one.
Now, you can point to many crimes committed by people who happened to be Christians where their Christianity wasn't brought to the fore. But that's different. Christians (and Muslims, and Jews, etc) can commit atrocities without being motivated by their religion. But it only seems to be Muslims who can unequivocally tell everyone, "I'm doing this for religious reasons", and in many cases cite scripture supposedly justifying their actions, and yet have their religion denied as being the motivating factor.
__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
^^^ ISIS are not representative of all Muslims. In fact many Muslims regard ISIS as outlaws/murderers/psychopaths etc. Muslims are overwhelmingly the victims of ISIS's violence and atrocities. They condemn and denounce ISIS constantly.
You seem intent on making no distinction between ISIS and Muslims.
Then you've misunderstood me. I have never said that ISIS represents all Muslims, nor do I believe that to be the case. It also was not implicit in anything I've said. It is absolutely true that Muslims are the primary victims of ISIS.
Some Muslims commit atrocities, including the killing of innocents. Some of these Muslims do so owing to an affinity for the goals of ISIS, which are explicitly religiously motivated. Others do so owing to an affinity for the goals of Al Qaeda, or Boko Haram, which are also explicitly religiously motivated. Some do so for other reasons. Incidentally, the members of Al Qaeda also condemn and denounce ISIS.
An illustration of what we're talking about here:
I'd ignore the "Salafi" circle as it muddies the basic point (for one thing, all Salafis are Sunni but obviously not all Islamists are Sunni, so not all Islamists can fit under the "Salafi" circle). But ISIS and Al Qaeda will mostly fit under the "Jihadi" circle. They're certainly all Islamists. They are only a subset of a subset of the category that is "all Muslims", but they're still motivated by Islam - a plausible literalist interpretation of religious texts, including the Qur'an but also certain Hadiths they happen to hold as sacred.
Why people seem to think any criticism of religiously motivated terrorism or other horrible actions amounts to painting all Muslims with the same brush, I can't understand. Unless it's just an inability to be able to handle nuance, which seems to be an epidemic these days.
__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
Last edited by CorsiHockeyLeague; 06-12-2016 at 10:50 PM.
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to CorsiHockeyLeague For This Useful Post:
Good post. I did misunderstand when you wrote "...Muslims can equivocally..." as some kind of universal, instead of the particular subset in your diagram.
