The 2016 Toronto Blue Jays Thread - Page 138 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Senator Clay Davis · 06-09-2016, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

How is it any worse using the same logic you are using for Dickey? The A's got Lowrie. Sure he was no MVP, but he played every day and was simply average.

You are completely discounting the fact that the Jays could have had absolutely any pitcher on the market they wanted for the package. The problem with the Syndergaard trade isn't so much what they gave up, it's what they could of got versus what they did.

Because the Jays got 4 full seasons and nearly 900 innings from Dickey. The As got 1 season for Lawrie and promptly dealt him. I'd say that's a pretty major difference between the two. As far as "what they could have gotten", obviously a pure hypothetical. And the Jays got the reigning Cy Young winner for Syndergaard. It just didn't work out, period. But it is not, and will never be considered one of the worst trades in baseball. I'm guessing if we tried hard enough we could find 5 worse trades in the last 5 years, with the Donaldson trade again being significantly worse because he was traded for talking back to Billy. It wasn't even a baseball trade.

JiriHrdina · 06-09-2016, 02:46 PM

Isn't it fair to say that Dickeys performance is similar to Lawrie and therefore the trades are quite comparable?

TheAlpineOracle · 06-09-2016, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Because the Jays got 4 full seasons and nearly 900 innings from Dickey. The As got 1 season for Lawrie and promptly dealt him. I'd say that's a pretty major difference between the two. As far as "what they could have gotten", obviously a pure hypothetical. And the Jays got the reigning Cy Young winner for Syndergaard. It just didn't work out, period. But it is not, and will never be considered one of the worst trades in baseball. I'm guessing if we tried hard enough we could find 5 worse trades in the last 5 years, with the Donaldson trade again being significantly worse because he was traded for talking back to Billy. It wasn't even a baseball trade.

You might be able to find 5 worse trades now, but you won't be able to down the road.

The Jays got a gimmick pitcher that many said was a terrible mistake at the time of the trade. This isn't just a trade that people are pooping on now because the emergence of Syndergaard, this has been questioned since day 1.

Rogers needed a name to calm the building outrage, and took the biggest name they could get with the cheapest price tag attached. It's as simple as that. I have no problem with them moving Syndergaard, I got a big problem with the return and always have.

TheAlpineOracle · 06-09-2016, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Isn't it fair to say that Dickeys performance is similar to Lawrie and therefore the trades are quite comparable?

I think that both trade are both up there on the garbage scale, but when you have a franchise Ace with a electric stuff, you don't give them away. It's a hell of a lot easier to find another 3rd basement than it is a franchise pitcher.

Senator Clay Davis · 06-09-2016, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

You might be able to find 5 worse trades now, but you won't be able to down the road.

The Jays got a gimmick pitcher that many said was a terrible mistake at the time of the trade. This isn't just a trade that people are pooping on now because the emergence of Syndergaard, this has been questioned since day 1.

Rogers needed a name to calm the building outrage, and took the biggest name they could get with the cheapest price tag attached. It's as simple as that. I have no problem with them moving Syndergaard, I got a big problem with the return and always have.

And yet unless you can dig out the rumored trades that were also out there for Syndergaard at the time, you have absolutely no idea what he could have netted in a trade. Of course that can now be Captain Hindsight with over a years worth of starts to say Syndergaard should have netted way more, but, and I know you'll never believe this, but it is possible that was the best Syndergaard could have netted at the time. And of course there's always potentially an injured filled future wait for Syndergaard, so who knows? But it'll never be considered one of the worst trades ever. Not even close.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Isn't it fair to say that Dickeys performance is similar to Lawrie and therefore the trades are quite comparable?

The Dickey trade was a baseball trade that didn't work out. The Donaldson trade was an ego move by Billy Beane that spectacularly backfired.

TheAlpineOracle · 06-09-2016, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

And yet unless you can dig out the rumored trades that were also out there for Syndergaard at the time, you have absolutely no idea what he could have netted in a trade. Of course that can now be Captain Hindsight with over a years worth of starts to say Syndergaard should have netted way more, but, and I know you'll never believe this, but it is possible that was the best Syndergaard could have netted at the time. And of course there's always potentially an injured filled future wait for Syndergaard, so who knows? But it'll never be considered one of the worst trades ever. Not even close.

The Dickey trade was a baseball trade that didn't work out. The Donaldson trade was an ego move by Billy Beane that spectacularly backfired.

It doesn't matter what Syndergaard has done since. Syndergaard was widely considered to be the top pitching prospect in baseball at the time, and D'Arnault was widely considered to be the best catching prospect in baseball at the time. If you don't think the Jays couldn't have gotten anyone they wanted who was on the market with that package, you are crazy in my opinion. It was essentially the same package the Jays got for Halladay (although Syndergaard was an even better prospect than Drabek). The fact they chose Dickey is brutal. When you are giving up prospects like that, you better be getting a sure thing back which was never the case with Dickey.

Dickey is a serviceable player and it's not his fault the Jays traded for him. Rather unfortunate all the way around. There was no way Dickey was ever going to come close to matching his NYM numbers in the AL East full of power hitting teams playing in small ballparks. I think he gets a bad rap with the fans because of it. He looks like the ultimate teammate in my eyes.

Senator Clay Davis · 06-09-2016, 04:21 PM

Thanks for sending me back to look into Syndergaard, because no, he was never considered the top pitching prospect in baseball. In fact reading writeups of the trade, I seem to be seeing a lot of people saying Syndergaard would be a 2/3 guy overall. D'Arnaud appears to have been the higher ranked player of the two at the time. You are severely overrating where he was at the time. Baseball Prospectus barely had him in the top 100 in 2013. You're acting like everyone knew he was a sure thing.

Karl · 06-09-2016, 05:19 PM

Oh ####. This might get overturned.

Karl · 06-09-2016, 05:20 PM

Phew, thank goodness I was wrong. Still only 1-0 Os.

TheAlpineOracle · 06-09-2016, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Thanks for sending me back to look into Syndergaard, because no, he was never considered the top pitching prospect in baseball. In fact reading writeups of the trade, I seem to be seeing a lot of people saying Syndergaard would be a 2/3 guy overall. D'Arnaud appears to have been the higher ranked player of the two at the time. You are severely overrating where he was at the time. Baseball Prospectus barely had him in the top 100 in 2013. You're acting like everyone knew he was a sure thing.

Every knew Syndergaard was as close to a sure thing as you get in baseball back then. He was the crown jewel of the Jays system. You weren't following the Jays back then if you didn't know who he was or his potential. The Jays haven't had a prospect like Syndergaard for decades. He was a 6'6 pitcher with a 97mph fastball at 18 when drafted with an array of other pitches to supplement it.

People move up on those lists as they progress through the minor leagues and become closer to major league read (never heard of Baseball Prospectus before, usually it's Baseball America). D'Arnaud was considered to be major league ready at the time which is why he was higher on the list.

in 2013 (his first year in the Mets Organization), he was ranked as their top prospects which says a lot because they had a ton of prospects. He went from the 54th rank prospect to the 11th on the baseball American list between 2012 and 2013 based on his performance in the season prior to being traded. Every knew by that point what he was bringing to the table.

Karl · 06-09-2016, 05:23 PM

Gonna need all the breaks we can get with the way this Orioles team is hitting right now.

Karl · 06-09-2016, 05:34 PM

Nice Russell. 3-1 Jays now.

TheAlpineOracle · 06-09-2016, 05:44 PM

Too bad Machado wasn't sitting this series out!

Karl · 06-09-2016, 05:52 PM

Beauty piece of hitting by Joey Bats there.

Karl · 06-09-2016, 05:54 PM

EE just missed that hanging meatball and pops it up.

Karl · 06-09-2016, 05:59 PM

C'mon Stroman...don't give the Os any freebies. Now 2 on for them and Manny Machado coming up. Sigh....

Karl · 06-09-2016, 06:01 PM

$h!t!!!

Karl · 06-09-2016, 06:04 PM

Geez, still tagging Marcus bad.

TheAlpineOracle · 06-09-2016, 06:05 PM

I really hope Zaun's prediction on Stroman from last year isn't true. Zaun said because he was so short he had no downwards trajectory on the ball, and once major league hitters became a custom to it, he'd get beat around and that he was better suited for the bullpen.

Man I hope he is wrong.

TKB · 06-09-2016, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

I really hope Zaun's prediction on Stroman from last year isn't true. Zaun said because he was so short he had no downwards trajectory on the ball, and once major league hitters became a custom to it, he'd get beat around and that he was better suited for the bullpen.

Man I hope he is wrong.

Marcus minus a few games early this season has probably been our worst starter. I'm with you, I sure hope zauns prediction isn't coming true.