2016 NHL Draft

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

One of the main reasons why Gaudreau struggled on the road was due to the Flames system being easy to defend against and the other team making sure their best were out there to interfere with him. He didn't have that problem the year before when teams did not understand the Flames system.

Despite the counting stats, the scoring chances suggest the taller, wider Monahan (Minus 8.04% SCF) struggled on the road more than Gaudreau (Minus 6.34% SCF) did despite them being linemates for the majority of the season.

But that doesn't fit the narrative so we'll brush it aside to focus on Gaudreau's size.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Despite the counting stats, the analytics suggest the taller, wider Monahan struggled on the road more than Gaudreau did.

But that doesn't fit the narrative.

Well they played together so Gaudreau's struggles and Monahan's struggles on the road are closely related. Both struggle when having to face the best shutdown players on the other team, the most physical, hard-nosed defenders. Both Monahan and Gaudreau badly need a power forward on their line to win board battles, drive the net taking defenders with him, while having the skill to finish and set them up. If we've got a power forward able to make a play while a defender is draped on him it makes that line so much harder to shut down.

Obviously both of them would benefit with us having a great 2nd line but Gaudreau is likely to face the best checkers of the opposition for most of his career so he still needs to fight through that. How would it be easiest for Gaudreau to fit through tight checking? By having a bigger winger on his opposite wing who has skill and power.

I'm of the opinion that Gaudreau-Monahan-Tkachuk could be the best line in the league in a couple years. Dubois could fit that line as well.

[dissentowner]

I got to say, it is pretty damn impressive with how passionate the fans on CP are about the Flames when we all debate points this hotly about a draft. I gotta admit, I like it.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Well they played together so Gaudreau's struggles and Monahan's struggles on the road are closely related. Both struggle when having to face the best shutdown players on the other team, the most physical, hard-nosed defenders. Both Monahan and Gaudreau badly need a power forward on their line to win board battles, drive the net taking defenders with him, while having the skill to finish and set them up. If we've got a power forward able to make a play while a defender is draped on him it makes that line so much harder to shut down.



Obviously both of them would benefit with us having a great 2nd line but Gaudreau is likely to face the best checkers of the opposition for most of his career so he still needs to fight through that. How would it be easiest for Gaudreau to fit through tight checking? By having a bigger winger on his opposite wing who has skill and power.



I'm of the opinion that Gaudreau-Monahan-Tkachuk could be the best line in the league in a couple years. Dubois could fit that line as well.

What are your thoughts on Tkachuk transitioning to RW? Hasn't he predominantly played the left side?

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

What are your thoughts on Tkachuk transitioning to RW? Hasn't he predominantly played the left side?

I think you would move Johnny to RW, he has the creativity and high skill that he can adjust better. It was already tried last year and he looked fine there.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Well they played together so Gaudreau's struggles and Monahan's struggles on the road are closely related. Both struggle when having to face the best shutdown players on the other team, the most physical, hard-nosed defenders. Both Monahan and Gaudreau badly need a power forward on their line to win board battles, drive the net taking defenders with him, while having the skill to finish and set them up. If we've got a power forward able to make a play while a defender is draped on him it makes that line so much harder to shut down.

Obviously both of them would benefit with us having a great 2nd line but Gaudreau is likely to face the best checkers of the opposition for most of his career so he still needs to fight through that. How would it be easiest for Gaudreau to fit through tight checking? By having a bigger winger on his opposite wing who has skill and power.

I'm of the opinion that Gaudreau-Monahan-Tkachuk could be the best line in the league in a couple years. Dubois could fit that line as well.

I don't see Tkachuk as a future linemate for Gaudreau if we are lucky enough to get him. I see him pairing with Bennett at first and potentially Monahan if Bennett surpasses him down the road. I think it is really important to try and build 2 really good lines rather than load up on one.

[Crumpy-Gunt]

Originally Posted by JJ1532

I'll be honest, this is a really well thought out post and I find it hard to disagree with your reasoning. However, there is one point that I do take issue with and its the bolded bit. This notion that he feeds off his line mates is a myth.

In his rookie season, he put up 17 goals without the help of Hudler. Only 5 of his goals did come with an assist for Hudler. So I'm sorry, the numbers simply don't support the idea that he fed off Hudler that year. It simply isn't true.

Ok, but what about his 2nd season, when he had Gaudreau AND Hudler to help him out? In the 14-15 season, he put up:

Goals/Assists WITHOUT Hudler and/or Gaudreau:
7 primary
5 secondary
15 goals

Goals/Assists WITH Hudler and/or Gaudreau:
12 primary assists
7 secondary
16 goals

So, of 31 goals he scored, just over half were via the assistance of either Gaudreau or Hudler. So, roughly 25% of his production in that season was arguably him just being in the right spot, waiting for a pass or move from Gaudreau/Hudler and then him scoring. And of the 35 points he put up with those 2 on his wings, he assisted them 17 times and they assisted him 16 times. So he actually assisted them more than they assisted him.

Thats not even to mention the fact that 27 of his 62 points(not far off half) were either scored with no help from those 2 or he assisted other guys on the team.

So, 75% of his production from the 14-15 season was either him assisting those 2 in some way, or it was him scoring/assisting without them helping. I simply don't see this notion that he feeds off his line mates, especially not those 2. I do agree that Monahan isn't an offensive driver. But he also isn't someone that relies on great team mates to score.

What about last season?

Goals/Assists WITHOUT Hudler and/or Gaudreau:
6 primary assists
1 secondary
9 goals

Goals/Assists WITH Hudler and/or Gaudreau:
19 primary assists
10 secondary
18 goals

Ok, 2/3rd of his goals came via either Gaudreau or Hudler. So he relied on them for a good portion of his goals. 47 of his 63 points also came with help from either Gaudreau or Hudler, or both. However, of those 47 points, 29 were assists. So on 29 occasions, he assisted those 2 to help the team score and 18 times, they assisted him. So the stats to me suggest that he helps them score more than they help him score.

Or maybe, the conclusion you draw from this is that they all helped each other out in the mixed time they've played together. I'm sorry, but this idea that Monahan needs them to score just doesn't stack up. Its an unfair slight on him.

Good post. I really like it. Glad you brought some stats.

However its a straw man. Who said Monahan needs them to score? I never said Monahan needs Gaudreau or Hudler to score. I said I think his offensive numbers as a teenager were inflated due to his linemates and the role he played on our team. Also that he wouldnt have made 20 other NHL teams, nevertheless cracked their top 6. Thus making people project him to be some guy who will score 10 more goals every season, reaching 50 or something. I simply think hes reached his statistical apex. I think Monahan will get better as a player. But he isnt an offensive 1st line C. Hes an all round, does everything good kind of player. Usually those are on the second line. I see him as a consistent 30 something goal scorer, who wins faceoffs and plays north south. Not someone whos going to eventually be the career trigger man on gaudreau's line and pot 50 goals like some have posted. But thats my OPINION. I'm not stating it as a fact. My posts are riddle with "i think" "the way i see it" "in my opinion", not "im 100% sure" or "this is whats going to happen".

Nobody is stupid enough to make the argument that a player needs their linemates to score. The linemates also need him to score.. Not to mention he's the center on the line and a lot of plays happen solely because of him winning a faceoff or relieving pressure with a good breakout pass. So please dont distort what I said...into "monahan wouldnt score any goals if it werent for hudler and gaudreau". Thats stupid and its not what my point was. My point is simple. Its not a slight. It has been pointed out many times and im sure the flames are making the same point to Monahan in negotiations right now. Do you generate the offense on this line. Are you the go to guy, the primary scorer. Are your numbers in your first seasons not in any way inflated from playing with 2 playmaking wizards and coming into a team with no PP forwards and no top 6 centers.


You are taking me saying his numbers were inflated on this line, and he benefited from playing with those 2, and turning it into "he needs them to score/he feeds off them". Go watch AC's highlights of Monahan. Heck go watch Gaudreau's highlights and see how many times gaudreau undresses 3 people, dekes out the camera-man and puts it on Monahans stick. If thats not a player benefiting from playing with what may be the best playmaker in the NHL - what is it?

That doesnt mean he cant go and score a goal while playing with Frolik and Ferland or some other 2 players. I'm sure he would score plenty without John. That doesnt change the fact many of his goals were tap-ins from 5 feet out off a wicked tape to tape feed. Dont believe me? Watch his highlights from the 67s, to rookie season to sophmore. Its not a knock. However it doesnt show elite 1st line offensive skill to score those goals. Just because I'm pointing that out doesnt mean I'm saying Monahan would be in the ECHL without Gaudreau..

I also pointed out I see Monahan scoring 30+ for over a decade as our 1B or 2nd line C, without Gaudreau. So how does that equate to me saying he cant score without Gaudreau..

He can score. Peroid. I called his shot an elite NHL shot. Relax people. You are counter arguing something nobody is saying.

I just dont think he will be our 1st line center and that his game moving forward will be more suited to a 2nd line or 1B center, if 1B makes people less angry haha. 2nd line center sounds like an insult to some people on here. Malkin is a 2nd line center..

I guess this is what happens when a fanbase is starved for an top end young player, nobody can say anything critical of their game.

Fine..He's the next toews, and he doesnt benefit at all from playing with one of the best, most talented and creative playmakers I've ever seen in the NHL (JG). His skating is FANTASTIC, he is the one creating most of the offense on his line, he has datsyukian hands and hes super super physical.

Are you happy now?



How ridiculous that one cant say something about one of their favorite players without people labeling it as me trying to knock the guy, or having a go at him / slighting his ability.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

What are your thoughts on Tkachuk transitioning to RW? Hasn't he predominantly played the left side?

Both Tkachuk and Gaudreau are smart players who could learn to play their off wing fairly quickly IMO. I have no doubt one of them could it without a problem. Many wingers switch sides, many wingers play their off wing.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Crumpy-Gunt

Fine..He's the next toews, and he doesnt benefit at all from playing with one of the best, most talented and creative playmakers I've ever seen in the NHL (JG). His skating is FANTASTIC, he is the one creating most of the offense on his line, he has datsyukian hands and hes super super physical.

Are you happy now?



How ridiculous that one cant say something about one of their favorite players without people labeling it as me trying to knock the guy, or having a go at him / slighting his ability.

I didn't really want to get into this further in this thread as it's off topic and there is a Monahan thread on the main page.

Your last post was completely fair now that you've elaborated, but those are not things you've said before. In the past you were a lot more critical with very little concessions that you added in that long post. The call with Steinberg was a perfect example of your attitude toward Sean in the past. Pat lost it, not because you suggested Monahan was ultimately best served as a 1B behind Sam, but because you went on an angry rant about how he was completely over-rated. Pat did a good job of exposing how ignorant a lot of what you said was (because it was).

Again, that last post where you paid him a lot of compliments is fair, and it's great to see you're giving him some well deserved respect. But again, that's a 180 from the way you talked about him in the past.

You should really re-post that last post in the Monahan thread, because it is food for thought on his place on the team moving forward. Whether it's 1A or 1B, I think the Flames are in a great place.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

I think you would move Johnny to RW, he has the creativity and high skill that he can adjust better. It was already tried last year and he looked fine there.

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Both Tkachuk and Gaudreau are smart players who could learn to play their off wing fairly quickly IMO. I have no doubt one of them could it without a problem. Many wingers switch sides, many wingers play their off wing.

While I think he's capable, I wouldn't want to move Gaudreau off the wing he works best on naturally.

Was more curious if Tkachuk had any experience on the right side. He certainly has the size and skill to compliment that line.

[Funkhouser]

If you watch Big White 06's video of Tkachuk in the ohl playoffs, he played almost exclusively on RW

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Funkhouser

If you watch Big White 06's video of Tkachuk in the ohl playoffs, he played almost exclusively on RW

Well on the powerplay Marner who is the usual RW moves to the point. Tkachuk often sets up shop beside the net on the RW side

[dammage79]

Give me the most skilled forward at pick #6. If it is Keller or Jost or Nylander I don't care, just get the most skilled player. Lots of real gems with size down in the 2nd round.

[Rick M.]

If only we knew that those stupid Bollig and Sieloff end-of-season goals were going to cause us this much trouble!

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Rick M.

If only we knew that those stupid Bollig and Sieloff end-of-season goals were going to cause us this much trouble!

We did.
That's why those goals made some of us miserable that night.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Rick M.

If only we knew that those stupid Bollig and Sieloff end-of-season goals were going to cause us this much trouble!

Seiloff's did not bother me, good for the kid to snag one. Useless stupid Bollig however did, way to show up finally when we don't want you to! I really can't stand Bollig, an enforcer who tries to be a hockey player instead of doing his job.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Rick M.

If only we knew that those stupid Bollig and Sieloff end-of-season goals were going to cause us this much trouble!

If we only knew if the Jets would have lost that game to the Kings when they were down 2 going into the third we would be flying high on the Laine hype train for the last month instead of debating 7-8 prospects daily.

[GoJetsGo]

The lottery was completely random. No idea how people are talking about specific goals / single games like they would have resulted in a specific difference. For all we know losing a game we won could have shaken things up and seen another team behind us bypass leaving us picking 7th.

[Crumpy-Gunt]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

I didn't really want to get into this further in this thread as it's off topic and there is a Monahan thread on the main page.


Again, that last post where you paid him a lot of compliments is fair, and it's great to see you're giving him some well deserved respect. But again, that's a 180 from the way you talked about him in the past.

You should really re-post that last post in the Monahan thread, because it is food for thought on his place on the team moving forward. Whether it's 1A or 1B, I think the Flames are in a great place.

I said he is overrated to pat because a caller compared him to one of the best hockey players I've ever seen...Jonathan Toews. Its not a 180 on what I previously said or believed, you just care too much about other peoples opinions and need someone to completely elaborate on a statement like 'i think sean is overrated by some of our fans, i think he will be a 2nd line center and I think he benefits a lot from playing with Johhny, I think sam bennett will be our 1st line center in the future'.

Thats exactly what I said to pat. Thats exactly what I said now, just in more depth and riddled with obvious and undeniable facts about monahan. But you are just a whiny baby who has a problem dealing with the fact 7 billion humans on earth have opinions. So you needed to know I like Monahan, and want him on this team before you accepted my opinion of him as valid.

I may just repost it in the mony thread. Thanks, but I dont care what your opinion about my opnion about sean monahan is and I wasnt responding to you.

You came out and said I have some disdain or hate for the guy and am criminally underrating him and refusing to give him credit or something just because I called in to tell pat I disagree with a caller who compared him to toews, see him as a 2nd line center who's numbers are higher than they would be without gaudreau and hudler, and who will be eventually surpassed by sam bennett. If you didnt make me out to look like some monahan hater I might actually care what you think.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Crumpy-Gunt

I said he is overrated to pat because a caller compared him to one of the best hockey players I've ever seen...Jonathan Toews. Its not a 180 on what I previously said or believed, you just care too much about other peoples opinions and need someone to completely elaborate on a statement like 'i think sean is overrated by some of our fans, i think he will be a 2nd line center and I think he benefits a lot from playing with Johhny, I think sam bennett will be our 1st line center in the future'.

Thats exactly what I said to pat. Thats exactly what I said now, just in more depth and riddled with obvious and undeniable facts about monahan. But you are just a whiny baby who has a problem dealing with the fact 7 billion humans on earth have opinions. So you needed to know I like Monahan, and want him on this team before you accepted my opinion of him as valid.

I may just repost it in the mony thread. Thanks, but I dont care what your opinion about my opnion about sean monahan is and I wasnt responding to you.

You came out and said I have some disdain or hate for the guy and am criminally underrating him and refusing to give him credit or something just because I called in to tell pat I disagree with a caller who compared him to toews, see him as a 2nd line center who's numbers are higher than they would be without gaudreau and hudler, and who will be eventually surpassed by sam bennett. If you didnt make me out to look like some monahan hater I might actually care what you think.

Doesn't really matter, because all you're doing now is changing your tune to save face. That isn't what you said on the Fan960 at all, and you were equally dismissive in your posting history at that time as well. On that call you were ranting and completely thrown off by the Toews comparisons, which everyone with any common sense knew where stylistic in nature, and in no way a direct comparison. It is like people who have compared Gaudreau's vision and style to Gretzky. Anyone with common sense knows no one is saying they're comparable talents at present. That was pointed out to you at the time and seemed to go right over your head. It was at the point where he was in disbelief with your take even after you were cut off.

Either way, this is completely off topic here and I have no interest in discussing it with you any further. It's crystal clear you've changed your tune in an attempt to save on the way you came across before.