2016 NHL Draft

[rogermexico]

I know this is probably discussed earlier in the thread, but how do Jost and Keller measure up against each other? I see them mentioned together a lot (although I don't know if there's any more to that beyond lumping them in as "not big" together).

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

I think this is a good indicator #6 and a couples 2nds does not come close.

Maybe he likes 2nd round picks as much as Darryl Sutter hated them?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

If the Flames were going to use the 6th overall pick based on need they would draft Nylander and call it a day as top 6 RW is by far the most deficient position in the organization. It sounds to me like they will take BPA and if they view Keller as BPA then I would assume they would take him. We have been going over this for so long now it's kind of exhausting trying to determine who they may have penciled in at this point or who's on their short list and I for one can't wait to finally get to June 24 to finally get some closure.

No they won't be drafting based on need. But as I said its much easier to draft a Keller type small, forward with sublime skills than it is to draft a top pairing dman, 1st line power forward or big, top two line centre. Therefore IMO he isn't BPA at #6. There are rarer and more valuable commodities available at #6.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by rogermexico

I know this is probably discussed earlier in the thread, but how do Jost and Keller measure up against each other? I see them mentioned together a lot (although I don't know if there's any more to that beyond lumping them in as "not big" together).

I like Jost more. He's considerably stronger and more filled out. Great skater, great hockey sense. I don't think either should be in consideration for #6.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Indicator of the best players or the most likely draft picks?

Button had Kyle Connor as the sixth best player in the draft last year.
McKenzie predicted Kyle Connor would be taken around 13th.

Bob's list indicated where Connor "would go".
Button's list indicated where Connor "should go".
What are you more interested in?

Wow ... what a great post.

You point out something that should be obvious but for some reason wasn't. Both are valuable.

1. What will happen on Draft Day
2. What will Draft Day look like in 5 years

Well done.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

CBJ on moving #3

Paying a fine to test Brown is all that I needed to know about what they had planned. That quote is to protect themselves with Jesse P in case they DON'T deal the pick and move down.

Can't have the kid seeing them bending over backwards to move down and then not.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

No they won't be drafting based on need. But as I said its much easier to draft a Keller type small, forward with sublime skills than it is to draft a top pairing dman, 1st line power forward or big, top two line centre. Therefore IMO he isn't BPA at #6. There are rarer and more valuable commodities available at #6.

I don't know. I just find it really hypocritical for Flames fans of all fans to downplay prospects due to size seeing the best player in the organization is close to the smallest in the league. Keller isn't big but he's not tiny and will fill out. I don't see a defensemen in this draft that projects to a top pairing guy as all three look like 2nd pairing defensemen. Dougie Hamilton was putting up better numbers than any of these guys did in his draft year in only 50 games played. There's no consensus on the three amongst scouts because none of them are special players and none of them possess his blend of size and skill that Hamilton did. And may I remind you the Flames traded for Hamilton so you can trade for top defensemen just like any other position and I don't see an top offensive player as any less of a commodity as a top defenseman as you need both to succeed in the league. I believe the Flames have one of the three defensemen on their list but I'm not convinced they will pick one.

[Bunk]

Bah! I just don't know anymore!

This is why I wanted a lottery pick, not just for the quality of player, but the ease of knowing with 95% certainty who we'd have so we didn't need to be handwringing for months.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Paying a fine to test Brown is all that I needed to know about what they had planned. That quote is to protect themselves with Jesse P in case they DON'T deal the pick and move down.

Can't have the kid seeing them bending over backwards to move down and then not.

Yeap. Also, is that quote about moving #3, or moving DOWN from #3?

Massive difference between those two scenarios, which is a concept some folks seem to have a hard time grasping.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Wow ... what a great post.

You point out something that should be obvious but for some reason wasn't. Both are valuable.

1. What will happen on Draft Day
2. What will Draft Day look like in 5 years

Well done.

It's a cherry-picked example though. It might make sense that McKenzie's consensus of NHL scouts is a better assessment of what "should" happen than Button personal opinion. And if not, an NHL team should be hiring Button.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

No they won't be drafting based on need. But as I said its much easier to draft a Keller type small, forward with sublime skills than it is to draft a top pairing dman, 1st line power forward or big, top two line centre. Therefore IMO he isn't BPA at #6. There are rarer and more valuable commodities available at #6.

You are entirely too obsessed with size man.

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Another knock I have against Keller besides his size is that he's an American going to college next season. He sees the log jam we have at centre and he decides to do his 4 years in college and go UFA on us.

Keller said he was still considering going to the Spitfires at the combine. Said it was something he had to discuss with his family.

If you take him at his word, he might go the OHL route, especially if his drafting team thinks it is best for his development.

[neo45]

Keller could be this years Kyle Connor or Dylan Larkin. One big year in college then ready to be signed. He put up better USHL numbers than both players, albeit Connor was on a less stacked team and Larkin was playing behind Eichel during his draft year

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

You are entirely too obsessed with size man.

And some people underrate size. It's big for board battles, net front battles and some fans underrate how big a part of the game those can be. Small players are more easily pushed down, physically contained and dominated. It's a big reason why Gaudreau struggles on the road.

It's fine to have a few small players sprinkled throughout the lineup but we can't have too many of them in this division. The Ducks and Kings pushed us around all season.

At #6 we can draft a foundational player to build around. I think there are rarer and more valuable types of players that we could be drafting.

[PepsiFree]

Size only matters for lower skill players. Yeah, for your third and fourth line you want some size to throw around. It's not a great idea to have lower skilled, slower guys that aren't big.

Look at Tampa, Chicago, and Pittsburgh. Size is not a requirement for your top guys, and at #6 we're drafting a top guy. Speed and intelligence is going to outmatch size and intelligence 9/10 times.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Why?

There is so much Johnny in Keller's game. It's uncanny. Instead of spending the next ten years arguing if Bennett or Monahan should play with Gaudreau, we should get Bennett his own Gaudreau..

The hands, the speed, the edge work, the vision, they're all there. Keller looks like he might have a better shot. Watch the highlights. He's never getting touched. At all. It's not for lack of going to the high traffic areas - he drives the net and forces the issue.

I do agree, I don't see us building around Shinkaruk or Mangiapane. I think Mangiapane is a 3rd liner and Shinkaruk is a stopgap at best. Neither are a reason to not draft Keller.

I've been advocating Keller since early last month when I was writing up my articles for the draft previews because he looks exactly like Gaudreau out there, as you said it's uncanny. I knew it was a reach because we are picking 6th and he at the time was rated 12th on most lists. Having 2 Gaudreau's would make this team significantly more dangerous. You would have an offensive wizard on the ice for 35-40 minutes a game. That would be a very important thing for the Flames.

Would you or I or anyone else prefer that Gaudreau and Keller were over 6'0", of course we would. Unfortunately they are not. That said if they had those skill sets and were over 6'0" they likely would have been the #1 overall pick in each draft.

In my opinion, the first and second round picks should be heavily focused on skill over every other consideration. If you can get skill + size, that's awesome, but it isn't necessary. Each of Kylington and Andersson last year were not large players. They were immensely skilled though. The Flames need to make more picks like that than Hunter Smith or Keegan Kanzig types (in this case, Logan Brown, where you're taking a guy with size and a lot less skill and talent overall).

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Size only matters for lower skill players. Yeah, for your third and fourth line you want some size to throw around. It's not a great idea to have lower skilled, slower guys that aren't big.

Look at Tampa, Chicago, and Pittsburgh. Size is not a requirement for your top guys, and at #6 we're drafting a top guy. Speed and intelligence is going to outmatch size and intelligence 9/10 times.

I'm not advocating taking low skilled players just because they are large. Saying size only matters for lower skill players is flat out false IMO. The bigger you are the harder you are to shut down. That's the reality of the NHL. It's part of why Mario and Jagr were as good as they were. It's part of why Thornton is as good as he is. Size does matter.

Skill can be hard to shut down and contain. Speed can be hard to shut down and contain. But size as well is hard to shut down and contain. Is Lucic one of the most skilled forwards in the league? Nope, but you can't get the puck off of him. You can't move him in front of the net. It's nearly impossible to stop him cycling the puck. The Flames lack this element up front. We have no forwards in our top 6 who excel at protecting the puck, driving the net, shrugging off big defenders. It's an integral part of the game. Big, strong forwards with skill can retain the puck the most easily. Management wants us to possess the puck more.

Having some big strong, skilled, fast powerforwards will make us harder to shut down, harder to play against and allow us to retain possession in the offensive zone more easily.

I don't believe the idea of ignoring size completely and going for strictly speed/skill can work in our division.

Anyways I don't believe Keller is in consideration for our pick. Management wants to get bigger and stronger. Management knows we already have Gaudreau, Shinkaruk, Mangiapane, we're pretty set on small forwards already. Keller is nowhere near a clearcut BPA at #6. I think there are teams that emphasize pure skill more than we do who may have Keller higher than we do. I think there are teams that have much bigger top 6's where Keller would fit in more easily.

Just don't see a fit at all with the Flames and Keller. I think Nylander is a more likely pick. I think Jost is a more likely pick. And I don't think any of those guys are in our top 6. Keller is a good little prospect but this is a draft with a very strong top end and we can grab a highly regarded prospect who doesn't have big questions marks like size.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

And some people underrate size. It's big for board battles, net front battles and some fans underrate how big a part of the game those can be. Small players are more easily pushed down, physically contained and dominated. It's a big reason why Gaudreau struggles on the road.

It's fine to have a few small players sprinkled throughout the lineup but we can't have too many of them in this division. The Ducks and Kings pushed us around all season.

At #6 we can draft a foundational player to build around. I think there are rarer and more valuable types of players that we could be drafting.

One of the main reasons why Gaudreau struggled on the road was due to the Flames system being easy to defend against and the other team making sure their best were out there to interfere with him. He didn't have that problem the year before when teams did not understand the Flames system.

I do agree that size is important. However, a team can have a couple of undersized players if they are amazing. Calgary, if they pick Keller, would have exactly 2 players that are undersized. Add other guys through trade/UFA that have size.

[Southside]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

I've been advocating Keller since early last month when I was writing up my articles for the draft previews because he looks exactly like Gaudreau out there, as you said it's uncanny. I knew it was a reach because we are picking 6th and he at the time was rated 12th on most lists. Having 2 Gaudreau's would make this team significantly more dangerous. You would have an offensive wizard on the ice for 35-40 minutes a game. That would be a very important thing for the Flames.

Would you or I or anyone else prefer that Gaudreau and Keller were over 6'0", of course we would. Unfortunately they are not. That said if they had those skill sets and were over 6'0" they likely would have been the #1 overall pick in each draft.

In my opinion, the first and second round picks should be heavily focused on skill over every other consideration. If you can get skill + size, that's awesome, but it isn't necessary. Each of Kylington and Andersson last year were not large players. They were immensely skilled though. The Flames need to make more picks like that than Hunter Smith or Keegan Kanzig types (in this case, Logan Brown, where you're taking a guy with size and a lot less skill and talent overall).

We'll take Stanley with our holler in the second round.

[bigrangy]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

-snip-

In my opinion, the first and second round picks should be heavily focused on skill over every other consideration. If you can get skill + size, that's awesome, but it isn't necessary. Each of Kylington and Andersson last year were not large players. They were immensely skilled though. The Flames need to make more picks like that than Hunter Smith or Keegan Kanzig types (in this case, Logan Brown).

Brown isn't exactly unskilled though. He doesn't have the puck skills of the other guys, but he can make a lot of space for himself and his teammates, and that is pretty much what people use their skills for at the highest level imo.

Example: Gaudreau coming down the wing, he stops up, the defenseman back off, now he has space, he finds an open guy then goes to wait in space for the puck to make its way back to him. The best players always have a great sense and ability to use open space to their advantage.

My only concern with Brown is how he doesn't seem to play with pace. This is definitely affected by his skating, but I don't think if his head and hands process the game as fast as an elite player should. Speed is already an important part of the game, and it's going to get even more important after Pittsburgh wins the cup. This is what everyone's concern about Jankowski was, sure he's skilled and big but he doesn't play very fast. I wish Janko was one year older, then we'd have a little bit of a Brown preview in the pros :P