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Old 06-07-2016, 02:12 PM   #1561
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And in the pursuit of fuel efficiency, the European market shifted heavily into diesels which have other types of emissions problems and are so hard to clean that VW had to essentially cheat.
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Old 06-07-2016, 02:22 PM   #1562
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I think that is a little unfair, CC. I believe many of the anti-oil protesters are sincere in their beliefs. Just a little too trusting (or uncaring) to realize that they are being funded by groups more interested in corporate espionage than environmentalism.
I'm not being paid enough or coddled enough by society to be fair, there are far too many professional protestors and professional protestor training camps and schools and handbooks out there.

Its a lucrative trade.

Show up for half a day, wave a placard, chain yourself to a tree while chanting slogans that you don't care or understand and get paid.

I'm not saying all protestors are professional, far from it, there are lots that are earnest in their beliefs and want a better world in their worldview, and good for them.

But when you read about native bands protesting pipelines while getting money through circulous routes from groups like Tides USA, well, I don't think there's a need for me to be fair.
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Old 06-07-2016, 02:28 PM   #1563
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http://business.financialpost.com/un...-usa-oil-sands

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/01/17...des-foundation
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Old 06-07-2016, 03:24 PM   #1564
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Countries need to start getting carbon credits on the world stage for planting trees and for each acre of forests. Howcome this is never looked at when blaming us for co2?

Canada has the third most forests covering 31% of it's land. Only Russia and Brazil have more.

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Old 06-07-2016, 03:28 PM   #1565
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Wonder around downtown Prague or London or wherever in Europe and you can see why they drive smaller cars. The streets are simply smaller and don't have room for the larger vehicles. They happen to be more efficient, but its not entirely altruistic.
I have on a few occasions, and talking to friends in London it's not because of the streets it's the cost. The streets are small for sure, yet Volvo sells an SUV and Hummer has a dealership there. If it was impossible to drive these vehicles there then they wouldn't offer them.
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Old 06-07-2016, 03:58 PM   #1566
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http://boereport.com/2016/06/07/sun-...e-change-bill/

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Old 06-07-2016, 04:07 PM   #1567
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I have on a few occasions, and talking to friends in London it's not because of the streets it's the cost. The streets are small for sure, yet Volvo sells an SUV and Hummer has a dealership there. If it was impossible to drive these vehicles there then they wouldn't offer them.
London also has a congestion tax for driving downtown though (which wasn't based on carbon and the environment) so that's another issue. That's why you see so many scooters there as opposed to other vehicles. But there are other factors at play, namely while the costs of fuel might be higher, there are viable alternatives as well which we are lacking. Its probably easier to not drive in a city like London with amazing transit infrastructure, and getting around England by train is sensible. Driving in Calgary is nearly essential. For a lot of Albertans driving is basically essential because there is no transit (think of the smaller rural towns for example)

And to me that points to the greater issue with the carbon tax that was just passed today. We can't modify these behaviors because it's not something you can swap out. People are going to spend money heating their homes, and that won't change. People in rural towns are going to fill up with gas because what else can they do? I hardly think people in Calgary have much choice, but certainly those people do not.
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Old 06-07-2016, 04:35 PM   #1568
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London also has a congestion tax for driving downtown though (which wasn't based on carbon and the environment) so that's another issue. That's why you see so many scooters there as opposed to other vehicles. But there are other factors at play, namely while the costs of fuel might be higher, there are viable alternatives as well which we are lacking. Its probably easier to not drive in a city like London with amazing transit infrastructure, and getting around England by train is sensible. Driving in Calgary is nearly essential. For a lot of Albertans driving is basically essential because there is no transit (think of the smaller rural towns for example)
Europe isn't all urban. It has rural areas as well, and it's not as though there are train stations and public transit in every town and village. If you live in the Irish countryside, or in rural Austria, you're driving a car. But you almost never see pickup trucks and big SUVs even in the countryside in those countries. Part of it is cultural (they're not associated with masculinity the way they are here). But a big part is cost. It's really expensive to run a car in Europe. So people buy small and try not to drive often if they can help it.

There's clearly a point at which the cost of filling up a car affects purchasing decisions and driving habits. If gas in Alberta cost $1.91 a litre (as it does in Ireland), I think you'd see a lot of people buying smaller cars and driving less. The question is whether the Alberta carbon taxes are high enough to move the needle much. I doubt they are.
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Old 06-07-2016, 04:44 PM   #1569
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Europe isn't all urban. It has rural areas as well, and it's not as though there are train stations and public transit in every town and village. If you live in the Irish countryside, or in rural Austria, you're driving a car. But you almost never see pickup trucks and big SUVs even in the countryside in those countries. Part of it is cultural (they're not associated with masculinity the way they are here). But a big part is cost. It's really expensive to run a car in Europe. So people buy small and try not to drive often if they can help it.

There's clearly a point at which the cost of filling up a car affects purchasing decisions and driving habits. If gas in Alberta cost $1.91 a litre (as it does in Ireland), I think you'd see a lot of people buying smaller cars and driving less. The question is whether the Alberta carbon taxes are high enough to move the needle much. I doubt they are.
Yeah I realise that not all of Europe is urban, but there are some stark differences. We have nothing compared to the transit and transportation infrastructure in general that they do. We also do have a lot of people who use those vehicles for hauling things for work and pleasure. Its not like every guy who owns a truck is compensating for something, or just wants to be a big man. Its a useful vehicle, depending on what you do for work and things like that. So for those people a lot of them have very little choice; you're not hauling a welder around in a smart car despite it maybe saving you a few bucks on a tank of gas.
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Old 06-07-2016, 04:53 PM   #1570
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Tinordi can you pleeeeease answer one question. I've asked you before and you go into hiding.

Canada co2 emissions: 2% of the world total
China co2 emissions: 24% of the world total
US co2 emissions: 15% of the world total

You're saying we in Canada need to completely alter our lifestyle for 2%?

Have you done anything to focus on the real problem? 155 new approved coal fired power plants burning cheap coal in china according to greenpeace?
I'd say Canada's co2 emissions are closer to being less than 1% than 2% so it's even less significant than these "official "graphs lead you to believe. They compile the data from individual country's government measurements / calculations and Canada and specifically Alberta's are among the most stringent and honest in the world.
The amount of flaring that goes on unmeasured in certain parts of the world would get your facility shut in here in Alberta..... And it has been this way long before the NDP's took power.
Attached is a link on the sulfur dioxide emissions they are finding not reported in certain parts of the world . Unmeasured co2 in these places and the US is even more common only they don't have the tech to identify these yet and thus rely on government reporting to create these graphs, which means they are basically garbage since the raw data is completly unreliable.
Also attached a link of how they get Co2 measurements

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/technolo...tion-1.3610537


http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/technolo...ases-1.3340162
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Old 06-07-2016, 05:00 PM   #1571
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Yeah I realise that not all of Europe is urban, but there are some stark differences. We have nothing compared to the transit and transportation infrastructure in general that they do. We also do have a lot of people who use those vehicles for hauling things for work and pleasure. Its not like every guy who owns a truck is compensating for something, or just wants to be a big man. Its a useful vehicle, depending on what you do for work and things like that. So for those people a lot of them have very little choice; you're not hauling a welder around in a smart car despite it maybe saving you a few bucks on a tank of gas.
Agree, but way too many people drive trucks/SUVs that have no need for them. And that's what I have been saying all along, it's not the actual miles that is going to change here, people need to drive. But the awareness of efficiency would be great.

Same thing with natural gas usage, it would be a good thing if people started looking at alternative ways to heat their homes and water other than the furnace and hot water tank. The amount of gas each home would use would be minimal compared to right now.

If higher prices are needed to create that mindset then great.
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Old 06-07-2016, 05:00 PM   #1572
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I'd say Canada's co2 emissions are closer to being less than 1% than 2% so it's even less significant than these "official "graphs lead you to believe. They compile the data from individual country's government measurements / calculations and Canada and specifically Alberta's are among the most stringent and honest in the world.
The amount of flaring that goes on unmeasured in certain parts of the world would get your facility shut in here in Alberta..... And it has been this way long before the NDP's took power.
Attached is a link on the sulfur dioxide emissions they are finding not reported in certain parts of the world . Unmeasured co2 in these places and the US is even more common only they don't have the tech to identify these yet and thus rely on government reporting to create these graphs, which means they are basically garbage since the raw data is completly unreliable.
Also attached a link of how they get Co2 measurements

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/technolo...tion-1.3610537


http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/technolo...ases-1.3340162
Right so if environmentalists are truly concerned about the environment they would start a huge push to purchase resources from countries with stringent environmental standards like canada. But yet, they do the opposite.

To make things worse we albertan's are paying for a better reputation on the environmental front so we can sell our oil overseas but it's not happening anyway. Our reputation doesn't seem to matter.
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Old 06-07-2016, 05:17 PM   #1573
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Right so if environmentalists are truly concerned about the environment they would start a huge push to purchase resources from countries with stringent environmental standards like canada. But yet, they do the opposite.

To make things worse we albertan's are paying for a better reputation on the environmental front so we can sell our oil overseas but it's not happening anyway. Our reputation doesn't seem to matter.
Exactly I don't really consider them enviromentlists , but paid activists who really don't care that much about the environment to them it's more filling their pockets with money by using climate change to push government policies which gives them more control and have foreign protectionist groups fund them.
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Old 06-07-2016, 07:03 PM   #1574
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Agree, but way too many people drive trucks/SUVs that have no need for them. And that's what I have been saying all along, it's not the actual miles that is going to change here, people need to drive. But the awareness of efficiency would be great.

Same thing with natural gas usage, it would be a good thing if people started looking at alternative ways to heat their homes and water other than the furnace and hot water tank. The amount of gas each home would use would be minimal compared to right now.

If higher prices are needed to create that mindset then great.
Why should everyone live how you want them to live?
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Old 06-07-2016, 07:08 PM   #1575
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I've defended my point about as much as this debate warrants it. If you think the price of something has no impact on the consumption and then back it up with laughably bad analysis then I'll give your argument the defense it deserves which is derision and ostracism.

I will reiterate my argument: We can argue the relative effectiveness of the tax to lower gasoline demand but to claim all it is is a cash grab that will have no impact is both ignorant and false.

But please go on and try to put words in my mouth and make baseless boasts about how you won this round.
You really think a hundred bucks a year difference at the pump is going to stop me from bringing out and driving my summer car that gets 5 mpg?
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Old 06-08-2016, 04:58 AM   #1576
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I responded earlier to this, with a small amount of research, becuase you were unwilling to provide any. What I found was there wasn't much evidence that carbon taxes have any affect at lowering CO2 emissions.
here:
http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpos...postcount=1236
and here:
http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpos...postcount=1237

And if the point of the carbon tax is to lower CO2 emmisions, and it isn't doing that, then isn't it just a tax?
We simply don't have enough observations of carbon taxes to make any definitive conclusions on the relative effectiveness of them.

It seems to be working decently in BC. Sweden it's definitely working. There are not many other jurisdictions with carbon taxes after that.

Anyway, there's a whole literature on pigouvian taxes and their impact.

You're assertion that they don't work is not based in an honest assessment of the evidence or the literature. I'm not here to baby you along to try to convince you that carbon taxes work. You are clearly motivated to prove a point.

Had you done one iota of research you would have found something like this page:

http://www.oecd.org/env/tools-evalua...altaxation.htm

Quote:
Environmental taxes have had a clear positive impact on the environment – to the extent that such taxes have been applied. The positive impacts have been documented in several OECD publications; most recently in the book on Taxation, Innovation and the Environment. That book also discusses economic impacts of environmental taxes; among them, the important impacts such taxes – and emission trading systems – can have on innovation, thus making the achievement of more ambitious environmental policy targets less costly. For a summary of the book, please see this Policy Brief.

In spite of the many advantages of environmental taxes, their use rests relatively limited in many countries – but the use is growing. When taking into account all taxes on environmentally related tax bases (energy, motor vehicles, emissions to air and water, wastes, hazardous chemicals, etc.), they raise revenues on average in OECD countries in an amount equal to about 1.7% of GDP. However, a tax can have an important impact on the environment also without raising much revenue; from an environmental perspective, one would like to see the tax bases in question being significantly reduced.
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Old 06-08-2016, 09:40 AM   #1577
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Well at least the spring session of the Legislature is done

http://www.630ched.com/syn/98/128992/128992


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Notley also told reporters that she believes her party has done more in the last four months than the previous P-C government accomplished “in the last six years.”




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Old 06-08-2016, 09:52 AM   #1578
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Hey everybody, I know a magic trick. I can make Tinordi dissapear. Just let me know when.

All I have to do is post this over and over:


Tinordi can you pleeeeease answer one question. I've asked you before and you go into hiding.

Canada co2 emissions: 2% of the world total
China co2 emissions: 24% of the world total
US co2 emissions: 15% of the world total

You're saying we in Canada need to completely alter our lifestyle for 2%?

Have you done anything to focus on the real problem? 155 new approved coal fired power plants burning cheap coal in china according to greenpeace?
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Old 06-08-2016, 10:06 AM   #1579
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I'm just intuitively reacting to that, but wouldn't it be more like 1%?

If the 2% number is correct, I still don't think it's actually possible to eliminate Canada's co2 emissions entirely. At best, using every conceivable efficiency measure, if we did everything we possibly could to bring emissions down, would it get below 1%?
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Old 06-08-2016, 10:11 AM   #1580
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Notley also told reporters that she believes her party has done more in the last four months than the previous P-C government accomplished in the last six years.
Not sure it would take much to accomplish more, but what would that list of accomplishments look like?
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