Windows 10

[Fuzz]

So you are saying my wife lied to me, after saying she hates the Windows 10 popup, and doesn't want Windows 10 but actually no, she decided to schedule it and let the installer ruin her morning? Uh uh. And the hundreds of thousands of other users who have had the same thing happen? Really?

Look, whatever the technical issues behind this disaster are, the fact is people are having their machines upgraded when they don't want it. Whether they accidentally clicked yes or not shouldn't really be the issue. MS could have avoided a lot of blowback by providing one final confirmation AND by providing and option to not get bothered every day by an annoying popup.

I've got plenty of experience with end users, and if you watch them, when the computer does something they don't want, they don't read it. They just click next or close to get it to go away. It's up to MS to design the system to operate in a manner users expect. And if it spams them with popups, the expecting reaction is going to be "go away", like they do with all popup boxes. It's either poor design, or nefarious design. Which do you think it is?

[photon]

The details don't really matter, it's the outcome. The outcome is people, because they're not sysadmins, don't have great memory, and don't really care about the details of their computers, are having a negative experience and getting something they didn't expect or being intruded on far more than they desire.

It's happening often enough that the fault is the software. It may be operating exactly to specification without any bugs, but the software is still at fault, the design is broken.

I am a nerd, a sysadmin, and pay close attention to my computer's config, and I still found the whole thing excessively intrusive, underhanded, and a moving target that changed with various updates that I was unable to escape without resorting to a 3rd party tool.

I've been using Microsoft products since MS-DOS, so it's not like I'm not a fan.

[Fuzz]

Further to the discussion about changing how the update works, and why a VM won't necessarily replicate what happened:

Just came home this evening to find three of my Windows 7 computers had reverted to "Windows Update OS upgrades enabled" mode in GWX Control Panel. This means that Windows either changed or deleted registry settings that GWX Control Panel had earlier put in place... and I THINK I found the culprit: One of the updates that these computers installed today is KB3083710, which is a client update for Windows Update itself. It may be that Microsoft wasn't intentionally/explicitly wiping out settings related to the Win 10 download, and really they were just wiping ALL Windows Update settings as part of this patch.

It's possible that KB 3083710 (for Windows 7) or KB 3083711 (for Windows 8.1) wiped out that registry setting.
On some PCs, KB 3083710 and KB 3083711 were changed on Tuesday, with their status going from optional-and-unchecked to important-and-checked. That may account for the registry change on Wednesday (Windows Update changes to the registry only "take" upon restart).

http://www.infoworld.com/article/299...-in-force.html

The fact that stuff like this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/windows/com...ain_computers/
and this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/...ng_reported_as

even exist is testament to how badly MS has bungled this.
Changing registry settings, blocking ever changing update KB numbers etc...it's a game of whack-a-mole that could have been avoided if MS respected user choice.

[TorqueDog]

photon, details are what separate this from being a bug (users being opted-in without actually opting-in) and by design (user behavior is being acted upon appropriately).


Fuzz: Nothing you posted refutes whether or not the functionality can be demonstrated in a VM. It can be demonstrated on a physical PC if you like.

Originally Posted by Fuzz

So you are saying my wife lied to me, after saying she hates the Windows 10 popup, and doesn't want Windows 10 but actually no, she decided to schedule it and let the installer ruin her morning? Uh uh. And the hundreds of thousands of other users who have had the same thing happen? Really?

Look, whatever the technical issues behind this disaster are, the fact is people are having their machines upgraded when they don't want it. Whether they accidentally clicked yes or not shouldn't really be the issue. MS could have avoided a lot of blowback by providing one final confirmation AND by providing and option to not get bothered every day by an annoying popup.

I've got plenty of experience with end users, and if you watch them, when the computer does something they don't want, they don't read it. They just click next or close to get it to go away. It's up to MS to design the system to operate in a manner users expect. And if it spams them with popups, the expecting reaction is going to be "go away", like they do with all popup boxes. It's either poor design, or nefarious design. Which do you think it is?

I'm saying people forget details, click on things without reading them, etc. Your wife never scheduled anything, she accidentally opted-in to the download/upgrade. The scheduling is done automatically, and at that point, a user would need to cancel or reschedule manually from the GWX panel.

The fact that phishing scams and the like are successful is a testament to the unfortunate truth that people do not read as quickly as they click. You even agreed on that point yourself. Read things before clicking on them. End of story.

If you want to talk about the PR side or the messaging, you'll hear no argument from me. When it comes to the actual function of the application, you do not get the download without reserving or downloading it via the GWX dialog. This is not a matter of opinion, this is a matter of "this is how the application behaves and does not behave".

[Fuzz]

The part that can't be replicated on a VM now(or physical machine) is that MS released updates in the past that flip that registry setting. So your new ly configured VM will keep what you have, but if you declined the update say, aback in December, an update between then and now has turned it back on. That's what I mean by your VM can't replicate how this has progressed.

As to your last comment, I'll disagree becuase with no intervention from the user, other than installation of recommended updates, the system will present the user with a dialog box telling them when it will update. I'm not sure why you keep saying it doesn't there are plenty of articles about it:

If the 'Give me recommended updates the same way I receive important update' option is enabled, the update will not only be downloaded, but the installation will be started.

http://betanews.com/2016/02/01/micro...and-8-1-users/

Sadly I'm awaiting for a call from my dad cursing his computer when Windows 10 is installed, becuase he has been away, and when he returns I wouldn't be surprised if his system has been updated. And I'm gonna have to deal with it, over the phone. *shudder*

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

As to your last comment, I'll disagree becuase with no intervention from the user, other than installation of recommended updates, the system will present the user with a dialog box telling them when it will update. I'm not sure why you keep saying it doesn't there are plenty of articles about it:

http://betanews.com/2016/02/01/micro...and-8-1-users/

Sadly I'm awaiting for a call from my dad cursing his computer when Windows 10 is installed, becuase he has been away, and when he returns I wouldn't be surprised if his system has been updated. And I'm gonna have to deal with it, over the phone. *shudder*

Recommended update or not, you still have to opt-in for the download to begin Windows 10.

That's the point. The system cannot present a dialog box of when it'll upgrade unless it downloads, because it can't schedule an update it hasn't downloaded yet. It cannot download without opt-in through GWX.

[Fuzz]

That's not what the quote says....

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

That's not what the quote says....

I don't care what the quote says, I care about what is accurate.

Seriously, try it for yourself. Recommended updates opt-in is not enough to get Windows 10 to download and install.

[Fuzz]

Maybe if I have time tomorrow.

[Fuzz]

Looks like it has gotten worse:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/06...re_no_way_out/

[photon]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Looks like it has gotten worse:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/06...re_no_way_out/

Lol that's the screen I had since almost the beginning! It would come up after every reboot, no way to close it, no way to say I don't want it, just choose now or choose a date. If I ended the task it restarted and came back.

And once that's popped up I also could not install any Windows updates, if some became available, I had to reboot and start the update (while carefully unchecking the Windows 10 which it checked by default for me) before the window popped up. Then sometimes that window would pop up and the update that was processing would screw up and sit there forever, so I'd have to reboot again to get it to keep going.

And then they started making updates to the malware definition file come every day sometimes, so every day if I didn't want Windows to nag me about pending updates I had to go through this reboot song and dance.

Yeah, great experience.

[TorqueDog]

A quick caveat that, again, that window doesn't show up without you opting in to the download / upgrade process. So if you don't opt-in, you're fine.

HOWEVER... it is not cool that there is no way to cancel your intent to upgrade from that dialog. You'll see no argument from me on that, that is not okay.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Recommended update or not, you still have to opt-in for the download to begin Windows 10.

That's the point. The system cannot present a dialog box of when it'll upgrade unless it downloads, because it can't schedule an update it hasn't downloaded yet. It cannot download without opt-in through GWX.

This is the root of the problem.

There are many actions that are considered as you opting in.

- If I reserve my upgrade to Windows 10. Why does reserving something indicate that that I want to install it no matter what? Why does it mean that it will happen on some schedule dictated by Microsoft?

- If I click Upgrade Later, because the UI gives me 2 obvious options, that is the closest one to not upgrading.

I could go on, but you get the point. This is Microsoft using a poorly designed UI (or maybe it is masterfully designed, since it gets people to accidentally do what MS wants) to get people to update to Windows 10.

People are clamoring that this is all about MS being able to monetize every Win 10 (and all future builds) install, but I don't care about that. Android/Google has been doing this forever, and the easier and more seamless it makes things for the users, the better it is in the long run.

Just be above board about it, and stop forcing the install on people. Stop un-doing registry hacks which are stopping GWX from running and all the other underhanded stuff they are doing to get this update forced upon people.

[chemgear]

I look forward (in a few months) when the deadline passes and each of the "new" updates will "automagically" flip the privacy settings back to the Microsoft desired defaults.

[Wormius]

Trying to set up my wife's laptop now. It is Windows 10 and trying to get our old, purchased enterprise edition for Office 2007 set up but Outlook is crashing approximately 15 seconds after opening it. Anybody have problems with old Office software?

[Fuzz]

Could be a few things. Did you install "business Contact Manager?" If so, and you don't need it I'd just get rid of it by going to add/remove programs" find office, and modify the install.

You can try running it in safe mode to see if it works. If that is the case, It's probably a messed up profile or an antivirus add-on.

You could try running it in compatibility mode(right click on the exe, select properties and try one of the different compatibility modes.)

It depends on Internet Explorer, so if you haven't launched that yet on the new PC, run it once to do an initial config, then try Outlook again.

It also depends on .net framework, which may not be installed. So you could try adding that.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Could be a few things. Did you install "business Contact Manager?" If so, and you don't need it I'd just get rid of it by going to add/remove programs" find office, and modify the install.

You can try running it in safe mode to see if it works. If that is the case, It's probably a messed up profile or an antivirus add-on.

You could try running it in compatibility mode(right click on the exe, select properties and try one of the different compatibility modes.)

It depends on Internet Explorer, so if you haven't launched that yet on the new PC, run it once to do an initial config, then try Outlook again.

It also depends on .net framework, which may not be installed. So you could try adding that.

What a god damned clusterfata. This is a fresh install or Office 2007. I don't get what could be the issue. Windows 10 account/email setting page does absolutely nothing, and Outlook won't allow me setup an exchange email account. It just tells me I can't set it up while Outlook is running and refers me to the Settings menu, which of course does nothing. I can configure the exchange account but it doesn't seem to be recognized by Outlook. Also the "Mail" program does the same thing. Let's me configure the exchange account, but refuses to use it. I just get the same "let's add your accounts." page.

My wife dislike Thunderbird, but I am getting close to installing it for simplicity.

[Fuzz]

Does Windows 10 have the old "mail" item in control panel that allowed you to setup an account before launching Outlook? Or is that the one that "does absolutely nothing"?

[Stealth22]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Does Windows 10 have the old "mail" item in control panel that allowed you to setup an account before launching Outlook? Or is that the one that "does absolutely nothing"?

If it's still there, they've hidden it. I have a VM running Windows 10 Pro, and I don't see that item in Control Panel anymore. (Do you need Outlook installed for it to appear?)

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Since they will be ending the free upgrade in July, I might throw another hard drive in and do the install, just so it is registered as the free upgrade. In case I actually want it in the future.

This is my plan. I have a 250GB SSD with Win7 and a spare 250GB mechanical drive. The mechanical drive will get the clone, upgraded to Windows 10 and thrown into a drawer of purgatory.