Flames eye Tkachuk at Memorial Cup, make final preparations for combine

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Point Blank

I'm not saying Nemisz wasn't highly touted, I'm saying he wasn't as highly touted as Tkachuk. 25th overall to being projected to go between 4-8th overall is a huge difference and IMO not comparable at all.

I won't argue you there. It was just an example Flames fans would know about that's fairly recent.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

There's a bust every year, several times over, in the first round and often the top 10. Now there's many reasons why a player busts, but if we're going to pull the ISS card, then why have a draft? Just auto pick players based on scout consensus if it's such a sound science.

I like strong skaters. Even guys with low IQ and rock hard hands can still be your Paul Byron's and prime Mason Raymond's due to that asset alone. They have to be phenomenally excellent in other areas to get past a glaring weakness. Or your a defensemen who can cut off angles, but that's also IQ. For wingers, it's a paramount attribute for success.

Nylander is soft as butter. No question, but so is Backlund and Gaudreau and those guys are marquee players on the Flames. Nylander finds open space and has one of the best shots in the draft. He's just as dangerous around the parameter as he is in close. He's good with puck and has excellent IQ. He also gives the Flames a right hand, so it keeps opposing goalies honest when shots are coming from the other angle as the rest of the shooters. You can trade Backlund for Kassian any day, so it's not like you can have too many skilled players.

Honestly, if the Flames wanted a hard nosed big winger with skill, I would prefer they traded the 6th overall for one who's proven to be this, rather than risking the next 3-5 years potentially go to waste.

Yeah that's what I said.

This has nothing to do with ISS...its ALL scouting services that have this kid as a pretty good player who projects to be able to take his game to an NHL level and in more than one area of the game.

You talk like he is a horrible skater....nothing i have read or seen suggests that whatsoever. Average? Maybe (tho in my limited viewing is above that), but that is made up for in other areas including his ability to play with elite level players.

As for "risking the next 3-5 years" on Tkachuk....every player is a potential risk including the Nylander kid who is far far more likely IMO to be unable to stand the jump to the NHL and all its rigors and demands than Tkachuk.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Yeah that's what I said.

This has nothing to do with ISS...its ALL scouting services that have this kid as a pretty good player who projects to be able to take his game to an NHL level and in more than one area of the game.

You talk like he is a horrible skater....nothing i have read or seen suggests that whatsoever. Average? Maybe (tho in my limited viewing is above that), but that is made up for in other areas including his ability to play with elite level players.

As for "risking the next 3-5 years" on Tkachuk....every player is a potential risk including the Nylander kid who is far far more likely IMO to be unable to stand the jump to the NHL and all its rigors and demands than Tkachuk.

Fair enough. But I disagree about Nylander. He's a stringgbean and he's soft, but one of those will be fixed with PEDs, the other, while unlikely to change, is not detrimental to making him an NHLer or otherwise useable/tradeable asset. It's also possible that Nylander only needs the right motivation, coach, role, etc. to change his style of play to be more physical.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

There's a bust every year, several times over, in the first round and often the top 10. Now there's many reasons why a player busts, but if we're going to pull the ISS card, then why have a draft? Just auto pick players based on scout consensus if it's such a sound science.

I like strong skaters. Even guys with low IQ and rock hard hands can still be your Paul Byron's and prime Mason Raymond's due to that asset alone. They have to be phenomenally excellent in other areas to get past a glaring skating weakness. Or your a defensemen who can cut off angles, but that's also IQ. For wingers, it's a paramount attribute for success.

Nylander is soft as butter. No question, but so is Backlund and Gaudreau and those guys are marquee players on the Flames.

People have a weird definition of soft.
First - I don't find Alex Nylander to be particularly soft. I think that his last name. But Backlund and Gaudreau are certainly not soft. They aren't big physical bashers, but they play the game hard and don't shy away from the tough areas.

That's not soft.

[Dr. Doom]

This is the annual smoke and mirrors game the Flames play prior to the draft.
Trying to send a team above after Tkachuk...

/conspiracy

[Vulcan]

Two things from that article caught my eye. Firstly Button is based in Ontario. I never knew this and seems odd in a way.

For me, based in Ontario, I saw London a lot this year. Matthew (Tkachuk) and Juolevi … they’re certainly exciting and fun to watch. So far, they’ve put on a pretty good show.”

Secondly the International Scouting Services that the author refers to has Nylander at 4th, which isn't a generally held sentiment, making Tkachuk available at 6th. Myself I don't like the odds of Tkachuk being available at 6th so this is raising Flames fans expectations unnecessarily.

But their early scouting report, before and after the Knights performance at the Memorial Cup, on Tkachuk — a 6-foot-1, 195-pound versatile forward who is sitting sixth on the International Scouting Services top-30 rankings — is good.

[Strange Brew]

All this talk of Nemisz makes me recall first game I saw him play. He had been drafted by the Flames and made the world junior team. Canada beat one of the second rate countries about 15 to zero. Nemisz was invisible and IIRC got not a single point. I thought that was a pretty bad sign and sure enough...

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

People have a weird definition of soft.
First - I don't find Alex Nylander to be particularly soft. I think that his last name. But Backlund and Gaudreau are certainly not soft. They aren't big physical bashers, but they play the game hard and don't shy away from the tough areas.

That's not soft.

See, now you're defensive mechanisms have clouded your ability to separate an imaginative world with one that is closer to reality.

When has Gaudreau ever took a hit to make a play? He's probably the most slippery player in the league. I'm not sure what dirty areas you're talking about, but you rarely see Gaudreau lying on the ice. Sometimes criticism allows you to love and appreciate something more. Just because I said Gaudreau is soft doesn't mean I can't appreciate what he does or that makes me a fan of the Flames any less, but I couldn't truly appreciate a player like Bennett, who winds up on his ass everytime he goes to the net, if I was blindly believing every Flames player is tough as grit.

Besides, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with being soft. For a guy like Gaudreau its survival and it's smart. It would be ######ed for Gaudreau to throw his body around and be taking hits. Watching his survival technique is a treat. You're missing out.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

See, now you're defensive mechanisms have clouded your ability to separate an imaginative world with one that is closer to reality.

When has Gaudreau ever took a hit to make a play? He's probably the most slipper player in the league. I'm not sure what dirty areas you're talking about, but you rarely see Gaudreau lying on the ice. Sometimes criticism allows you to love and appreciate something more. Just because I said Gaudreau is soft doesn't mean I can't appreciate what he does or that makes me a fan of the Flames any less, but I couldn't truly appreciate a player like Bennett, who winds up on his ass everytime he goes to the net, if I was blindly believing every Flames player is tough as grit.

Besides, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with being soft. For a guy like Gaudreau its survival and it's smart. It would be ######ed for Gaudreau to throw his body around and be taking hits. Watching his survival technique is a treat. You're missing out.

Actually here's a really funny thing, Gaudreau's taken plenty of hits to make a play. Been laid out on the boards numerous times. Grinds his way throught the most slashes to the wrists I've ever seen, and has actually played the body extremely well to fight for a puck more times than I can count this season. AND! He's laid out some awsome body checks! At least 5 by my count. I think you, Jiri and I are on the same page here but your examples are a bit off.

[Strange Brew]

There are a thousand ways to interpret soft. For some it's a lack of desire and compete level, players who back off and are less effective when intensity and physicality get ramped up. If that's your definition, then Gaudreau or Backlund are not soft and very tough to say about Nylander. But for some soft is all about crashing and banging. So Gretzky was a soft player.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Actually here's a really funny thing, Gaudreau's taken plenty of hits to make a play. Been laid out on the boards numerous times. Grinds his way throught the most slashes to the wrists I've ever seen, and has actually played the body extremely well to fight for a puck more times than I can count this season. AND! He's laid out some awsome body checks! At least 5 by my count. I think you, Jiri and I are on the same page here but your examples are a bit off.

I agree JG takes a lot of trips and slashes and hook. Hes one of the best at drawing penalties because he's slippery and able to possess the pucks. But dont really see that as hard hockey. The Sedins draw a lot of penalties when they're cycling from the same forms of contact, but they're also soft in my books.

Engelland will go after a puck along the boards, scoop it up and try to pass it even if someone is charging at him. He will finish that pass even if it means being laid out. Gaudreau will chip it and roll away from the contact or try to draw the puck into him while he rolls away, but he wont absorb the full wrath of the hit if that meant carrying out a clean pass or dump.

[CliffFletcher]

Did Greg Nemisz lead his team in scoring at the WJC? Tkachuk has been an elite player at every level and every team he has played on.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

There are a thousand ways to interpret soft. For some it's a lack of desire and compete level, players who back off and are less effective when intensity and physicality get ramped up. If that's your definition, then Gaudreau or Backlund are not soft and very tough to say about Nylander. But for some soft is all about crashing and banging. So Gretzky was a soft player.

Since when was soft a lack of desire? I've been watching hockey for over 20 years and this is the first I've heard a lazy player mean the same as a soft player.

Gretzky was a soft player, but again, that's not a criticism. Gretzky made things happen every time he hit the ice and left you in awe, regardless of his soft characteristics. Its like workers and managers. You need someone who works from the neck up and plan things out, but that's useless unless there's someone who doesn't over think it and gets their hands dirty. Both are equally necessary

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Since when was soft a lack of desire? I've been watching hockey for over 20 years and this is the first I've heard a lazy player mean the same as a soft player.

Gretzky was a soft player, but again, that's not a criticism. Gretzky made things happen every time he hit the ice and left you in awe, regardless of his soft characteristics. Its like workers and managers. You need someone who works from the neck up and plan things out, but that's useless unless there's someone who doesn't over think it and gets their hands dirty. Both are equally necessary

But for you, "hard hockey" seems to be simply hitting or getting hit. Nothing more than that, everything else is soft. That's an extremely narrow view.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by the2bears

But for you, "hard hockey" seems to be simply hitting or getting hit. Nothing more than that, everything else is soft. That's an extremely narrow view.

You can be a lazy player who hits, and you can be a worker whos soft. I imagine semantics has confused you you with narrow viewpoints.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

You can be a lazy player who hits, and you can be a worker whos soft. I imagine semantics has confused you you with narrow viewpoints.

I never said anything about "lazy" players, or "workers". It's you who is confused.

You agree that Gaudreau takes a lot of slashes. Yet since he doesn't get hit, nor does he hit, he's soft. That's fine, but it's still your own narrow view of what makes for "hard hockey".

[Reggie Dunlop]

Tkachuk is the guy to get at 6.

[GomerPile]

I don't follow prospects like many here do. I didn't know who he is and was very impressed with Tkachuk in Helsinki when I went to the WJC. He seemed to play bigger then he was and went after anyone he wanted. He seemed to be the player you want on your team, not to be playing against. I think that is exactly what the flames are looking for. Play like that is also contagious, if one or two players play like that, more will follow suit.

Also side note - Saw ole Keith there watching, that guys hit the buffet line since retiring. Wowsers.

[Delthefunky]

Keith Tkachunk? didn't realize they were related.

[GomerPile]

Yup, his son. So I guess we can confirm that Matt will fill out with age