Use of Native American Imagery in Sports

[White Out 403]

Wow. That's a genuinely surprising result to me. If those numbers hold up on a larger sample size... maybe it's time that I stop being offended on behalf of someone else. Crazy.

[sempuki]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

Wow. That's a genuinely surprising result to me. If those numbers hold up on a larger sample size... maybe it's time that I stop being offended on behalf of someone else. Crazy.

Small sample size.

Its not about being offended of behalf of others its about being grown ups in 2016. It's objectifying regardless of who it objectifies, and we should really just expect better of ourselves.

The best take on this discussion has always been when Steven Colbert had a group of redskins fans come in and explain why the name was no problem -- to a group of native Americans. I don't recall the native Americans being offended as much as gobsmacked at the audacity of the reasoning.

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by sempuki

Small sample size.

Its not about being offended of behalf of others its about being grown ups in 2016. It's objectifying regardless of who it objectifies, and we should really just expect better of ourselves.

The best take on this discussion has always been when Steven Colbert had a group of redskins fans come in and explain why the name was no problem -- to a group of native Americans. I don't recall the native Americans being offended as much as gobsmacked at the audacity of the "explanations".

Lets just assume for a moment though that that # is correct. Let's pretend that 90% of all native americans dont care about the name at all.

Why is it a problem still?

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

Lets just assume for a moment though that that # is correct. Let's pretend that 90% of all native americans dont care about the name at all.

Why is it a problem still?

Should we pretend that 10% matter? Is that what you're asking?

[Lanny'sDaMan]

Originally Posted by the2bears

Should we pretend that 10% matter? Is that what you're asking?

And there it is. We as a society today are spending so much time and energy appeasing that 10% that REAL issues like unemployment, homelessness, mental illness are all being waysided. OMFG that dudes legs are open too far on the subway!!! HOLY CRAP I'M OFFENDED CAUSE SOMEONE DIFFERENT WANTS TO USE MY PISSER!!!! SAFE SPACE!! SAFE SPACE!!!!!

AD Nauseum.

Not every single thing needs to be examined and ripped apart because of perceived offence or because of "white guilt". And as a person who is 1/2 native I personally think this whole discussion is offensive. Freaking drop it. No one actually cares about the name. I'm more sick of people being offended on my behalf when I don't actually care.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Lanny'sDaMan

And there it is. We as a society today are spending so much time and energy appeasing that 10% that REAL issues like unemployment, homelessness, mental illness are all being waysided. OMFG that dudes legs are open too far on the subway!!! HOLY CRAP I'M OFFENDED CAUSE SOMEONE DIFFERENT WANTS TO USE MY PISSER!!!! SAFE SPACE!! SAFE SPACE!!!!!

AD Nauseum.

Not every single thing needs to be examined and ripped apart because of perceived offence or because of "white guilt". And as a person who is 1/2 native I personally think this whole discussion is offensive. Freaking drop it. No one actually cares about the name. I'm more sick of people being offended on my behalf when I don't actually care.

And there it is. You deciding what matters for others.

There is apparently a large number of people who this bothers. But alas, while we were typing, neither of us did anything about homelessness Must mean we don't care about that!

[Lord Carnage]

Originally Posted by the2bears

Should we pretend that 10% matter? Is that what you're asking?

I guess the question could be more like, "How far do we go to try and not offend anybody?"

It's not realistic to think that nobody will be offended to anything we do. There are people out there who will have relatives that were killed in the Atlanta fire of 1917 - the namesake of the Atlanta Flames which became the Calgary Flames. If they find having a team named after than event offensive, are we now obligated to change our team name?

There is intelligence, and there is just trying to please everybody - something that isn't achievable anyways.

In this specific case, if the number in that poll holds with a larger sample size, I think it is worth considering that some people are making mountains out of what should be a mole-hill.

Just my thoughts though...

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by the2bears

And there it is. You deciding what matters for others.

There is apparently a large number of people who this bothers. But alas, while we were typing, neither of us did anything about homelessness Must mean we don't care about that!

You would think homelessness would be at the centre of every election campaign based on how much both the left and the right bring it up when the other side's perceived stupid issues are at play.

Yet it never is.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

Wow. That's a genuinely surprising result to me. If those numbers hold up on a larger sample size... maybe it's time that I stop being offended on behalf of someone else. Crazy.

Good thing my stance has always been that us whiteys shouldn't be the ones deciding what's okay and what's not

[RyZ]

Originally Posted by the2bears

And there it is. You deciding what matters for others.

There is apparently a large number of people who this bothers. But alas, while we were typing, neither of us did anything about homelessness Must mean we don't care about that!

It seems more like a small, fringe group of people here are trying to decide matters for everybody and the number clearly isn't very large. 9-10% of a population simply is not a large enough number to "upset the apple cart".

[Lanny'sDaMan]

Originally Posted by the2bears

And there it is. You deciding what matters for others.

There is apparently a large number of people who this bothers. But alas, while we were typing, neither of us did anything about homelessness Must mean we don't care about that!

You want to know what the First Nations People care about? We care about the deplorable conditions on the reservations, the garbage education system the kids receive or more succinctly DON'T receive, the higher than average levels of youth incarceration, the insanely high rates of youth suicide and hopelessness. THE INSTITUTIONALIZED and SYSTEMIC racism all First Nations People face.

I have never spoken with a member of the Nations who gives even 1/4 of a crap what some team name is and whether it's offensive. But you go ahead and keep telling us how to feel and what we should care about.

[Barbecue]

Nothing useful to add but reposting this

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Lanny'sDaMan

You want to know what the First Nations People care about? We care about the deplorable conditions on the reservations, the garbage education system the kids receive or more succinctly DON'T receive, the higher than average levels of youth incarceration, the insanely high rates of youth suicide and hopelessness. THE INSTITUTIONALIZED and SYSTEMIC racism all First Nations People face.

I have never spoken with a member of the Nations who gives even 1/4 of a crap what some team name is and whether it's offensive. But you go ahead and keep telling us how to feel and what we should care about.

I'm not. If you re-read my posts, you'll see that. I'm saying there is, according to the study, a group that cares. Not once did I tell you how to feel, or what you should care about.

As for your first paragraph, I agree the conditions are deplorable. I'm embarrassed this has happened and is still happening, and I wish more people cared about it enough to provoke change.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnage

I guess the question could be more like, "How far do we go to try and not offend anybody?"

It's not realistic to think that nobody will be offended to anything we do. There are people out there who will have relatives that were killed in the Atlanta fire of 1917 - the namesake of the Atlanta Flames which became the Calgary Flames. If they find having a team named after than event offensive, are we now obligated to change our team name?

There is intelligence, and there is just trying to please everybody - something that isn't achievable anyways.

In this specific case, if the number in that poll holds with a larger sample size, I think it is worth considering that some people are making mountains out of what should be a mole-hill.

Just my thoughts though...

I guess if "they" ever become a protected group? I think there's an obvious distinction between a minority group that was historically treated like they were and the group you mention.

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

You would think homelessness would be at the centre of every election campaign based on how much both the left and the right bring it up when the other side's perceived stupid issues are at play.

Yet it never is.

The homeless were badly treated here during the Super Bowl. But not enough *really* care, which is sad.

Originally Posted by RyZ

It seems more like a small, fringe group of people here are trying to decide matters for everybody and the number clearly isn't very large. 9-10% of a population simply is not a large enough number to "upset the apple cart".

I guess this was my original point - to me 10% is still a large group of people that care, certainly enough that I think *I* should consider their opinion on this.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnage

I guess the question could be more like, "How far do we go to try and not offend anybody?"

It's actually a tougher question than it seems at first simply because the instant that victimhood gains social currency, everyone wants some. We then devolve into a farcical oppression olympics now seen played out in some circles. Really, the answer has to be some sort of a cost-benefit analysis. It costs us basically nothing not to have sports teams with racial slurs as names or caricatures of minorities as logos. It costs you nothing not to use the word "fag" in a pejorative context. These are easy behavioural changes that really don't significantly detract from anyone's ability to enjoy their lives. Meanwhile, from the other side, some sense of perspective is important - if the Cleveland Indians change their logo tomorrow, as the probably should, and a year from now you go to a game and there's a guy wearing the old-logo jersey that he's had for 20 years... it's not the end of the world. He's probably not a racist.

It's a pretty tough line to draw, though, and it's not fixed... if you draw a line anywhere in stand up comedy, for example, you've probably already done too much to restrict expression in that medium.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

Wow. That's a genuinely surprising result to me. If those numbers hold up on a larger sample size... maybe it's time that I stop being offended on behalf of someone else. Crazy.

I'm not shocked at all. I got blasted for it before but I will say it again, this "issue" is little more than white guilt.

[sempuki]

Originally Posted by Lanny'sDaMan

You want to know what the First Nations People care about? We care about the deplorable conditions on the reservations, the garbage education system the kids receive or more succinctly DON'T receive, the higher than average levels of youth incarceration, the insanely high rates of youth suicide and hopelessness. THE INSTITUTIONALIZED and SYSTEMIC racism all First Nations People face.

I have never spoken with a member of the Nations who gives even 1/4 of a crap what some team name is and whether it's offensive. But you go ahead and keep telling us how to feel and what we should care about.

All true -- good thing the issues aren't mutually exclusive.

In fact I've never spoken to a single person who thinks "Redskins" is derogatory that doesn't think poverty on reserves is a bigger problem. The problem is getting people to change a name is much simpler and easier to accomplish than fixing reserves. What's your solution for all of the issues you raised?

If anything I'd wager the people that don't care about being derogatory to minorities are probably the same people that aren't bothered by minority issues like poverty...

People are getting hung up on the word "offensive" as if it's just a matter of perspective or fashion. Objectifying an entire race is derogatory from an completely objective rational point of view -- no matter how it's done, how well intentioned it was, or how many people get visibly upset about it. People used to keep slaves, treat their wives like property, and beat their kids -- and if you asked people at the time I'm sure you could get a majority to believe that was normal or even right behavior. It's just 2016 and we should really grow the #### up as a civilization, one step at a time.

[nik-]

Can I admit that something that something is racist while also not being offended on behalf of others? Or is it all one way or the other.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Lanny'sDaMan

And there it is. We as a society today are spending so much time and energy appeasing that 10% that REAL issues like unemployment, homelessness, mental illness are all being waysided. OMFG that dudes legs are open too far on the subway!!! HOLY CRAP I'M OFFENDED CAUSE SOMEONE DIFFERENT WANTS TO USE MY PISSER!!!! SAFE SPACE!! SAFE SPACE!!!!!

AD Nauseum.

Not every single thing needs to be examined and ripped apart because of perceived offence or because of "white guilt". And as a person who is 1/2 native I personally think this whole discussion is offensive. Freaking drop it. No one actually cares about the name. I'm more sick of people being offended on my behalf when I don't actually care.

I honestly think you have a point about society putting special interest groups above the majority, just not here.

Changing this name is such an easy thing to do. 10% of an entire race is still a lot of people. We aren't even talking about "special treatment" here. Just dropping a derogatory slur from a professional sports team. It just seems like basic manners / humanism to me.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by blankall

I honestly think you have a point about society putting special interest groups above the majority, just not here.

Changing this name is such an easy thing to do. 10% of an entire race is still a lot of people. We aren't even talking about "special treatment" here. Just dropping a derogatory slur from a professional sports team. It just seems like basic manners / humanism to me.

If changing a name was so easy it would be changed already. Look at all this money wasted on the name of a sports team when that money could be put to better use.