Stabbing in Brentwood-5 Dead, 1 Arrested

[Coys1882]

Originally Posted by T@T

Revenge would be the death penalty(which I am against) but sick in the head or not he needs to pay for this crime with his freedom. The family's should not have to worry that this guy gets out 5-10 years from now because his "meds" work or he's better now.

I don't see why this is so hard to understand

What outcome would you want if an epileptic had a seizure and drove a car into a playground or busy supermarket killing multiple people?
What if that epileptic had never had a seizure before?
What if he'd had one years ago but was able to go off his seizure reducing meds and this was the first one since?
What if he refused to take his meds to reduce seizures because he didn't like the way he felt on them?

[CaptainCrunch]

[QUOTE=Coys1882;5761663]What outcome would you want if an epileptic had a seizure and drove a car into a playground or busy supermarket killing multiple people?
What if that epileptic had never had a seizure before?
What if he'd had one years ago but was able to go off his seizure reducing meds and this was the first one since?
What if he refused to take his meds to reduce seizures because he didn't like the way he felt on them?[/QUOTE]


Out of all of these, I think that the last one places the blame of burden right on the person that refused to take his medicine, and why in a case of mental illness where this happens that public safety has to trump the individuals rights to freedom of choice.

And if that person is freed that they have to be closely monitored for the rest of their lives.

[Coys1882]

[QUOTE=CaptainCrunch;5761688]

Originally Posted by Coys1882

What outcome would you want if an epileptic had a seizure and drove a car into a playground or busy supermarket killing multiple people?
What if that epileptic had never had a seizure before?
What if he'd had one years ago but was able to go off his seizure reducing meds and this was the first one since?
What if he refused to take his meds to reduce seizures because he didn't like the way he felt on them?[/QUOTE]


Out of all of these, I think that the last one places the blame of burden right on the person that refused to take his medicine, and why in a case of mental illness where this happens that public safety has to trump the individuals rights to freedom of choice.

And if that person is freed that they have to be closely monitored for the rest of their lives.

totally agree - in the De Grood case, I believe the defendant fell under scenario 1 or 2. Had never been diagnosed or had been treated prior but was doing well.

[bax]

Would just like to say that this thread has been an informative and engaging read. Thanks to everyone who has shared a personal story, I know that stuff isn't easy to discuss or talk about it, but it really sheds some light on mental illness. It really is a frightening thing within our society how little we understand about mental illness given how widespread it appears to be.

Also would like to point out that this thread has not been derailed and has provided some excellent insight and discussion.

Not my place to say how the trial should or will shake down, but man what a tragedy. It's really hard to imagine what it would be like to be personally affected by the murders.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Out of all of these, I think that the last one places the blame of burden right on the person that refused to take his medicine, and why in a case of mental illness where this happens that public safety has to trump the individuals rights to freedom of choice.

And if that person is freed that they have to be closely monitored for the rest of their lives.

This is an extremely complex subject. I too have an immediate family member with a severe mental illness, in the realm of psychosis/schizoid disorder. I have been struggling on how to share my experience on this board and in the context of this case as the diagnosis is still quite new (ie. the last few years) and is difficult for me to discuss.

The illness produces behaviours which are not rational (obviously) and extremely difficult to understand for the rest of us. In terms of your bolded statement above, it's not so simple as "refusing to take medication". They don't feel that it's a choice, and this is part of the illness. Thinking that the medication is evil and/or represents some evil force trying to control them, is part of it. Another part of it is the side effects of the meds, including lethargy, depression, weight gain, etc. You combine both of these things, sometimes also with with the feeling that they are "healed" because they don't hear voices when on the meds, and they often go off of them only to spiral out of control again. I have had experience over and over again with our family member that we thought they were better (more or less), and then they disappear for weeks and pop up on the other side of the planet. And it turns out they haven't been taking their meds for a month. This happens early in the diagnosis often and the hope is that eventually the person realizes and agrees they need to be medicated long-term.

I agree that public safety needs to be the first and foremost priority. My family member is now on forced medication, which could be a solution to a number of these cases. The public health care system is bizarre because they "stabilize" patients for a while with medication, and then release them. It's very clinical and has varying degrees of rehabilitation and success. Often the mental health units in the hospitals see the same people over and over and over again. Sometimes for 20+ years. There is no real fix.

For those of you taking a hard line to "put this guy away for life" etc., I can empathize with this view and I reiterate my feeling that public safety needs to come first. However it's not so simple or easy. Until you have first hand experience with someone you love and care about who has this type of disease, I understand that it's almost un-relatable, but I can tell you that it changes your perspective.

I don't know what the answer is. Honestly the health care professionals don't even know what the answer is. I personally feel that the answer is often forced medication (ie. injections) for the rest of their lives, but I'm sure there are arguments against that. The medication does work but as mentioned above has many side effects and maims this person's ability to be happy while they're on it. In a case like the De Grood one, this is what I feel should happen. A long period of institutionalization, forced medication for the rest of his life, and close monitoring. There are still risks with this model.

I dunno it's just so sad and terrible, this case but also mental illness and the stigmas associated in general. We have often felt hopeless and it has been sad to watch the decline.

And for those of you whining about a thread de-rail, this is absolutely about mental health. Suck it up.

[peter12]

The psychologist's comment re his assessment of de Grood are fascinating. Leaves very little room for doubt that he is faking his NCR plea.

Essentially, when assessed, de Grood tried to present himself as less ill than an NCR diagnosis would require. Pretty classic symptom of people suffering from schizophrenia.

[foshizzle11]

Originally Posted by Coys1882

What outcome would you want if an epileptic had a seizure and drove a car into a playground or busy supermarket killing multiple people?
What if that epileptic had never had a seizure before?
What if he'd had one years ago but was able to go off his seizure reducing meds and this was the first one since?
What if he refused to take his meds to reduce seizures because he didn't like the way he felt on them?

Maybe anyone who has any history of seizures shouldn't have a drivers license?

And if they chose to come off their meds (recommended by a medical professional) and ended up killing someone because of it, then they should be held responsible, shouldn't they?

[The Ditch]

I don't think that it's wrong to have a feeling of anger that he will be released in 5-10 years back into society and be able to enjoy the rest of his life while these families and close friend's lives are shattered forever.

I think it's frustrating all around, I question why his parents didn't do more to help him out, if my kid was acting like that I would think I would have done more to get them to see someone, but, bad things happen to good people and it's not a just world

[blankall]

Originally Posted by foshizzle11

Maybe anyone who has any history of seizures shouldn't have a drivers license?

And if they chose to come off their meds (recommended by a medical professional) and ended up killing someone because of it, then they should be held responsible, shouldn't they?

Part of their disease makes them paranoid and suspicious of people who try to help them, particularly doctors who want to medicate them.

You're attempting to project rationale decision making capabilities onto someone with a disease that prevents them from doing that.

I'm not saying that's the case here, but it definitely happens.

[morgin]

Originally Posted by The Ditch

I don't think that it's wrong to have a feeling of anger that he will be released in 5-10 years back into society and be able to enjoy the rest of his life while these families and close friend's lives are shattered forever.

I think it's frustrating all around, I question why his parents didn't do more to help him out, if my kid was acting like that I would think I would have done more to get them to see someone, but, bad things happen to good people and it's not a just world

Based on the responses in this thread from people who have dealt with mental illness in their families, it's becoming very apparent to me (and it appears a lot of others as well) that a statement that he will be able to enjoy the rest of his life is rooted in faulty assumptions about what the end result of mental health treatment looks like. I serious doubt Mr. Degrood will have any quality of life for the remainder of his life, whether due to being heavily medicated, or resistant to treatment and thus condemned to a prison of his broken mind.

As to the comment about his family, it was telling to me that his dad, who I suspect knows a fair bit about mental health warrants from his career in policing, thought his son might not qualify. Again, given what others in here have spoken to regarding their own experiences, it seems that was a reasonable assumption up to that night.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

I gotta say, I agree with T@T here. I'm all for studying DeGrood to understand why he did what he did. Why wouldn't we want to know? And maybe him being in a maximum security prison isn't the best place to do that. But I most certainly don't want him released to the public, even if he is on meds. The fact is, he HAS the capability to murder, whether it was ''him'' or not. That capability is inside him and he unleashed it. 5 people are dead and countless lives are ruined because of him (whatever ''him'' is). He should not be released. Rehabilitated or not, I feel the same way about Vin Li. And I feel the same way about the Medicine Hat girl.

You realize that literally every human being, save maybe those with physical disabilities, has the capability to murder another human being under the right circumstances, right?

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Stormageddon

Would it not be different if the mental health system actually had more money to deal with these kinds of cases?

IMO he should be found criminally responsible because it was still something inside him that made him do it. But if that means he has to go to jail and not get the help he needs then obviously that can't happen. The problem is when he is sent away to be helped, only so much can be done with the resources available. Even if they want to, they can't keep him in there forever, the money just isn't there.

Once he reaches some sort of baseline he will be released?

Am I wrong here?

That's incorrect only in that high profile cases will always get any amount of funding they need to attempt to rehabilitate. The last thing our government would ever want is "That guy who murdered 5 people was pushed out the door early by AHS due to budget constraints".

Unfortunately, it's all the other "normal", non high profile cases that get the short end. It's the "Single mother with severe mental illness that is only a harm to herself gets pushed out the door and commits suicide" stories that you'll never hear on the news that really show the shortcomings of mental health treatment in our country.

[The Ditch]

Originally Posted by morgin

Based on the responses in this thread from people who have dealt with mental illness in their families, it's becoming very apparent to me (and it appears a lot of others as well) that a statement that he will be able to enjoy the rest of his life is rooted in faulty assumptions about what the end result of mental health treatment looks like. I serious doubt Mr. Degrood will have any quality of life for the remainder of his life, whether due to being heavily medicated, or resistant to treatment and thus condemned to a prison of his broken mind.

I feel like this is as much speculation as anything, we don't even know if he cares/is remorseful that he killed everyone, I haven't seen on way or the other in the comments of reporters at the court. There's a chance he just doesn't care because he was NCR and the meds will work fine enough for him to live life.

We're hearing anecdotal eveidence about others with schizophrenia but one of the psychiatrists who was an expert in court for this case said that 1 of 3 are fine after treatment, so who knows

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by The Ditch

I feel like this is as much speculation as anything, we don't even know if he cares/is remorseful that he killed everyone, I haven't seen on way or the other in the comments of reporters at the court. There's a chance he just doesn't care because he was NCR and the meds will work fine enough for him to live life.

We're hearing anecdotal eveidence about others with schizophrenia but one of the psychiatrists who was an expert in court for this case said that 1 of 3 are fine after treatment, so who knows

Well yeah, of course there's a chance. But think about it logically for a second, or better yet, put yourself in that situation.

You have paranoid schizophrenia and you kill 5 people. You come out of it at some point and have it explained to you that you took the life of 5 young students. What do you honestly think you as an otherwise normal human being would feel? "Well, I don't really care because I have an excuse and the meds will work fine for me to have a life".

Seriously man, what you do you honestly think the chances are of that? They'd have to be hovering around zero, right?

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by rubecube

You realize that literally every human being, save maybe those with physical disabilities, has the capability to murder another human being under the right circumstances, right?

So what is your point? DeGrood did.

[MBates]

Originally Posted by foshizzle11

Maybe anyone who has any history of seizures shouldn't have a drivers license?

This comment I think demonstrates the blissful ignorance that many in society walk around in - which is why they can then form such black and white opinions on these topics.

Before Mr. DeGrood slaughtered 5 people he was 'normal'. He was exactly the same as all the rest of us. Successful student. Valued employee. Good friend. Beloved son. On second thought, maybe he was not just the same but better than many of us.

I guess in order to look at this in black and white and to guarantee our safety we need to preemptively imprison all people who fit in the category of "the next potential Matthew DeGrood."

Except...that's literally everybody on the planet who has not yet suffered a psychotic break.

Everything in life is a balancing act of risk management. When I started having seizures - suddenly and unexplained while a young university student - I did not drive for 6 months. Under guidance and direction of a neurologist I started driving again. I have been safely driving without any statistically significant increased risk to the rest of you for nearly 20 years...and you had no idea! All the while I have a history of medically unexplained seizures!

It is not a simple straight across comparison, but to forever lock up a person with any history of mental illness who has ever been violent regardless of their current risk assessment is both unjust and foolish.

The "next Matthew DeGrood" or "next Vince Li" etc. is more likely to be another random member of society with no prior history. That is unnerving for sure. But to take that feeling of insecurity and angst and try to feel better by indiscriminately locking up the mentally ill and throwing away the key is not a reasonable response.

[The Ditch]

He was showing symptoms, or at least signs leading up to this, it is documented, you can't argue it. Now should those people known better and forced him to get help, I would say maybe, they won't face any criminal offense from inaction though

[Nyah]

Originally Posted by The Ditch

He was showing symptoms, or at least signs leading up to this, it is documented, you can't argue it. Now should those people known better and forced him to get help, I would say maybe, they won't face any criminal offense from inaction though

I think if this thread is any indication, forcing someone to get help is massively difficult, especially if that person is over 18. Not to mention that the changes he appeared to be going through happened pretty rapidly. I don't know if there's anything his parents could have done.

[calumniate]

Originally Posted by Nyah

I think if this thread is any indication, forcing someone to get help is massively difficult, especially if that person is over 18. Not to mention that the changes he appeared to be going through happened pretty rapidly. I don't know if there's anything his parents could have done.

Yes for sure. And even if you do succeed in getting them to a hospital, that's just the tip of the iceberg unfortunately in terms of getting them the help they need or keeping them in for any period of time.

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by MBates

excellent post

Mr. Bates, I wanted to say that I think your posts are some of the best CP has to offer, and that I genuinely appreciate reading your insights.

Thanks!