Stabbing in Brentwood-5 Dead, 1 Arrested

[Royle9]

Just want to say, while I'm still trying to wrap my head around not wanting "justice" for the remorseless slayings of these 5 young adults I am slowly starting to really understand just how unreal mental health can be.

The story's shared and that email from his brother are eye opening, and I want to apologize to anyone I may have offended with my posts/strong feelings on the subject. Clearly there's more to it and for that I will sit back and see where the justice system takes this.

I wouldn't wish this on anyone, that email was borderline frightening to the extent that you would hope its made up.

[peter12]

As an aside, every time that I see NCR in the Twitter transcripts, I think "New California Republic."

[MBates]

I have been resisting the temptation to refer to this as a 'show trial' but it is extremely difficult for me to accept that everyone has not already concluded NCR will be the outcome.

No legitimate Crown prosecutor would propose on day 2 of a 1st degree murder trial to have a day of family tributes for the victims if he was actually conducting a trial to convict someone and sentence them to life.

No competent defence counsel could even fathom agreeing to such a step if he was not already assured no convictions were being sought.

As for the judge, I am struggling to understand how he permitted it to happen even though it was jointly proposed by the lawyers. Having allowed massively prejudicial and completely invalid information put before him he could not legitimately convict the accused now and have the proceeding withstand appellate scrutiny.

I am not in any way undermining the apparent value of the tributes for the family and friends of the victims or in any way criticizing their conduct or questioning their grief. But the justice system is potentially causing itself serious harm by whatever is going on in that courtroom...because what happened yesterday is completely illegitimate in terms of substantive and procedural Canadian criminal law.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Royle9

Just want to say, while I'm still trying to wrap my head around not wanting "justice" for the remorseless slayings of these 5 young adults I am slowly starting to really understand just how unreal mental health can be.

The story's shared and that email from his brother are eye opening, and I want to apologize to anyone I may have offended with my posts/strong feelings on the subject. Clearly there's more to it and for that I will sit back and see where the justice system takes this.

I wouldn't wish this on anyone, that email was borderline frightening to the extent that you would hope its made up.

Oh this is so awesome. This is exactly what you hope comes of these discussions on CP.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by MBates

I have been resisting the temptation to refer to this as a 'show trial' but it is extremely difficult for me to accept that everyone has not already concluded NCR will be the outcome.

No legitimate Crown prosecutor would propose on day 2 of a 1st degree murder trial to have a day of family tributes for the victims if he was actually conducting a trial to convict someone and sentence them to life.

No competent defence counsel could even fathom agreeing to such a step if he was not already assured no convictions were being sought.

As for the judge, I am struggling to understand how he permitted it to happen even though it was jointly proposed by the lawyers. Having allowed massively prejudicial and completely invalid information put before him he could not legitimately convict the accused now and have the proceeding withstand appellate scrutiny.

I am not in any way undermining the apparent value of the tributes for the family and friends of the victims or in any way criticizing their conduct or questioning their grief. But the justice system is potentially causing itself serious harm by whatever is going on in that courtroom...because what happened yesterday is completely illegitimate in terms of substantive and procedural Canadian criminal law.

Completely, completely agree.

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by Royle9

Just want to say, while I'm still trying to wrap my head around not wanting "justice" for the remorseless slayings of these 5 young adults I am slowly starting to really understand just how unreal mental health can be.

The story's shared and that email from his brother are eye opening, and I want to apologize to anyone I may have offended with my posts/strong feelings on the subject. Clearly there's more to it and for that I will sit back and see where the justice system takes this.

I wouldn't wish this on anyone, that email was borderline frightening to the extent that you would hope its made up.

My brother gave me a scary letter when he disappeared that one day from my place when he ran off to Victoria. I specifically changed details in my original post because otherwise it would become too long to describe in one post and just said he vanished, but he was actually waiting at my door when I came back from work, gave me the letter and told me not to say anything just read it. It was handwritten, here is what I recall mostly from the letter:

My dear brother (yes he said that), They are coming! They are after me and have followed me, I need to run. I cannot stay here or you will get killed too. Don't talk to anyone about this. Don't mention I was here. Don't call the police. I have to go now. I want you to book a taxi and need some money I am going to the airport, but don't say to the taxi I am going there. Say I am going to the bar. I need to go.

I booked a taxi, I did question him at first about what he wanted to do, but since he looked so scared, I believe that he was irrational due to being scared and went along. Went with him in the taxi, I left in it shortly at a few blocks away, gave him 200$ or so that I had on me and he continued to the airport. We shook hands and said our goodbyes and that was it. My dad called me the next day to say that my brother disappeared (he was living with my dad). I chose not to tell him that he came here, until his plea for help while in Victoria a few days later.

I don't remember if I stored it somewhere as proof if anything happened to him, or I destroyed because of how messed up it was. I would have to dig through some of my boxes.

[T@T]

Very disturbing the amount of people making excuses for this guy murdering 5 people, I don't care why he did it, I don't care what he was thinking when he slaughter these kids and ruined the lives of countless family's. He should grow old behind bars period.

Charles Manson was a bi-polar, paranoid schizophrenic, should he be out?

[MrMastodonFarm]

Derp.

[Flamenspiel]

Originally Posted by MBates

I have been resisting the temptation to refer to this as a 'show trial' but it is extremely difficult for me to accept that everyone has not already concluded NCR will be the outcome.

No legitimate Crown prosecutor would propose on day 2 of a 1st degree murder trial to have a day of family tributes for the victims if he was actually conducting a trial to convict someone and sentence them to life.

No competent defence counsel could even fathom agreeing to such a step if he was not already assured no convictions were being sought.

As for the judge, I am struggling to understand how he permitted it to happen even though it was jointly proposed by the lawyers. Having allowed massively prejudicial and completely invalid information put before him he could not legitimately convict the accused now and have the proceeding withstand appellate scrutiny.

I am not in any way undermining the apparent value of the tributes for the family and friends of the victims or in any way criticizing their conduct or questioning their grief. But the justice system is potentially causing itself serious harm by whatever is going on in that courtroom...because what happened yesterday is completely illegitimate in terms of substantive and procedural Canadian criminal law.

nm.

[townie_80]

Originally Posted by T@T

Very disturbing the amount of people making excuses for this guy murdering 5 people, I don't care why he did it, I don't care what he was thinking when he slaughter these kids and ruined the lives of countless family's. He should grow old behind bars period.

Charles Manson was a bi-polar, paranoid schizophrenic, should he be out?

I don't think people are trying to make excuses for anything. I think people bring an awareness to schizophrenia to seemingly narrow-minded folks. Also to highlight that this isn't a cut and dry murder case and it may seem like there is no justice for the victims. No one said he should be out and free. It is an unfortunate situation and I am not sure we know how to properly handle it.

[Matt Reeeeead]

Originally Posted by T@T

Very disturbing the amount of people making excuses for this guy murdering 5 people, I don't care why he did it, I don't care what he was thinking when he slaughter these kids and ruined the lives of countless family's. He should grow old behind bars period.

Charles Manson was a bi-polar, paranoid schizophrenic, should he be out?

This is about understanding why these things happen.

Not excuse why these things happen.

The issue is that your solution does not encourage society to prevent similar cases in the future. It does not help rehabilitate a person with an illness.

Nobody wants to release De Grood into society. He clearly needs to be removed from society and given proper treatment and monitored by professional doctors.

The 5 kids aren't coming back regardless of how much suffer we inflict on the mentally ill.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by T@T

Very disturbing the amount of people making excuses for this guy murdering 5 people, I don't care why he did it, I don't care what he was thinking when he slaughter these kids and ruined the lives of countless family's. He should grow old behind bars period.

Charles Manson was a bi-polar, paranoid schizophrenic, should he be out?

As usual, you're completely missing the point. The trees in front of you are being described to you in great detail and you still can't see the forest

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by T@T

Very disturbing the amount of people making excuses for this guy murdering 5 people, I don't care why he did it, I don't care what he was thinking when he slaughter these kids and ruined the lives of countless family's. He should grow old behind bars period.

Charles Manson was a bi-polar, paranoid schizophrenic, should he be out?

nm

[OldDutch]

Originally Posted by T@T

Very disturbing the amount of people making excuses for this guy murdering 5 people, I don't care why he did it, I don't care what he was thinking when he slaughter these kids and ruined the lives of countless family's. He should grow old behind bars period.

Charles Manson was a bi-polar, paranoid schizophrenic, should he be out?

It's tough line to walk I will give you that. When my best friend murdered his fiance and took his own life I was very confused. I still am. I alternate periods of anger like your post, and empathy. I have no idea if he was officially mentally ill, and I never will. He never hurt a fly in all the years I knew him. Maybe he was a good person for 28 years, and then one day he snapped in a fit of depression and rage. Maybe he always was a murderer, ready to exact his will anytime.

You can be angry anyone's behalf all you want. Fact is you can't control this court proceeding anymore than you could control this person on trial. It is becoming increasingly clear this person has issues, and he'll hopefully be sent to the right institution to help him. After reading the suicide attempts, this person probably wants his life to stop, and if he had his way it probably would end. Just like my friends did.

Just a nightmare to the family on both sides. Everyone gets a jail sentence in some form here. So I think the least we can do is deliver fair justice and if he is mentally ill, learn from this. It is the most disappointing thing for me in the last 8 years, very little meaningful progress has been made on prevention. I just wish they could study these guys and profile them to save some lives in the future. Instead we sit around asking to hang him or lock him up, and the cycle repeats over and over. All I can hope is that cycle gets broken soon so people can't avoid what I and many others went through.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

As usual, you're completely missing the point. The trees in front of you are being described to you in great detail and you still can't see the forest

What point am I missing? Start a mental health thread if you want but this thread is about the brutal murders of 5 teens that has now been derailed.

[jayswin]

It's right on track. Tragic situation all around.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by T@T

What point am I missing? Start a mental health thread if you want but this thread is about the brutal murders of 5 teens that has now been derailed.

Brutal murders by someone who obviously has serious mental health concerns. To put your head in the sand (or some other place if you ask me) and pretend that they are two separate issues is ignorant of the facts. Attempting to answer why someone committed these horrific acts it allows for an increased understanding of the illness and underlines the importance of reducing stigmatization of the disease. Look as to how many people here have shared experiences that you would never have heard about, if it wasn't for this discussion.

A bit of empathy and understanding of the complexities of mental illnesses can help people get treatment, rather than ostracizing them to the outskirts of society.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by T@T

What point am I missing? Start a mental health thread if you want but this thread is about the brutal murders of 5 teens that has now been derailed.

lol, really? Yeah, talking about the murderer, what he was thinking, his potential mental state is off topic. Get a grip buddy.

Ignorance fits some people like a glove.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by T@T

What point am I missing? Start a mental health thread if you want but this thread is about the brutal murders of 5 teens that has now been derailed.

I'm struggling to see the point of a thread about murders that just exists to play out, presumably, the 'I hope he gets repeatedly butt raped for the rest of his miserable life' fantasies.

Seriously you can you tube some old 'Oz' episodes if that's what gets you off.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by OldDutch

It's tough line to walk I will give you that. When my best friend murdered his fiance and took his own life I was very confused. I still am. I alternate periods of anger like your post, and empathy. I have no idea if he was officially mentally ill, and I never will. He never hurt a fly in all the years I knew him. Maybe he was a good person for 28 years, and then one day he snapped in a fit of depression and rage. Maybe he always was a murderer, ready to exact his will anytime.

You can be angry anyone's behalf all you want. Fact is you can't control this court proceeding anymore than you could control this person on trial. It is becoming increasingly clear this person has issues, and he'll hopefully be sent to the right institution to help him. After reading the suicide attempts, this person probably wants his life to stop, and if he had his way it probably would end. Just like my friends did.

Just a nightmare to the family on both sides. Everyone gets a jail sentence in some form here. So I think the least we can do is deliver fair justice and if he is mentally ill, learn from this. It is the most disappointing thing for me in the last 8 years, very little meaningful progress has been made on prevention. I just wish they could study these guys and profile them to save some lives in the future. Instead we sit around asking to hang him or lock him up, and the cycle repeats over and over. All I can hope is that cycle gets broken soon so people can't avoid what I and many others went through.

I agree with everything you say...everything.

Also I too have been affected by the actions of another with severe mental issues and was the one who found her hanging at the end of a rope. an image that is seared into my conscious til my last breath.

That being said, when it comes to the bolded....what can be done exactly?

As has been mentioned in this very thread...if someone refuses treatment and are not declared dangerous to either themselves or others by someone else with authority and expertise to do so...there is absolutely nothing you or I can do about it from a legal standpoint.

The "cycle" really isn't a "cycle" at all except that these people continue to fall through the cracks at the expense of their personal liberties. I get it from both angles too....believe me.

It's why I fall on the side of "lock em up" more than the "rehab them" side of thngs. If they are jailed we are much much more certain they will be no threat to the public. Then I start to think "yeah but if they couldnt help what they were doing...."

I just think that the justice system, as flawed as it is and has been for 40 years now, needs to come up with a way to grab these people before they offend even if it is at the expense of their rights. If someone is batcrap nuts and talking violence and a myriad of other things that make no sense...then they need to be examined and declared safe or not.

I dunno....its a really difficult conundrum IMO.