The New American Politics thread

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Matata

Can't fix something unless you understand how it's broken. I find myself doing mental backflips for Trump because he's the only one i can even begin to be optimistic about, the insiders are making damn sure Bernie will perpetually be on the outside looking in, and Hillary will tell which way the wind blows but will sit, roll over and beg for her big money supporters. Trump has an X factor that may lead to positive change even if he is a complete disaster. The best case scenario i see for this election is being able to pull a couple gems out of a pile of garbage.

How so? How does Trump foster positive change? What exactly is he, as POTUS, going to do that will change anything?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

I think that's very dangerous thinking for a Clinton supporter. You are dismissing what your opponents supporters are saying is the #1 issue.

You can't tell them what is most important to them - you have to listen to what they tell you the issue is. Then you frame a solution and why your solution is better than the opponents.

If you dont, you only reinforce their belief that the system is broken and needs to be overhauled.

i'm not saying i agree or disagree with their opinion. I think Clinton is the best choice by the way. But I see very little upside to framing the Republican supporters as dumb hicks and telling them what the issues are going to be rather than listening to what their issues actually are.

By and large their issues revolve around appeals to racism, which is a political position in decline as demographics in key swing states change.

There is little value in arguing with the entrenched. The GOP is saying it is better to burn out than to fade away. This is the result of the unchecked oligarchy that runs the us political machine.

It is what I find si personally terrifying about the reduction of political parties in Canada. The reduction of the political process to "us or them" political theater is dangerous for all of us.

[killer_carlson]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

By and large their issues revolve around appeals to racism, which is a political position in decline as demographics in key swing states change.

That is not the experience I have had with Trump supporters, but I think a lot of Clinton supporters want it to be the case. It makes it easier to dismiss Trump support.

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

It is what I find si personally terrifying about the reduction of political parties in Canada. The reduction of the political process to "us or them" political theater is dangerous for all of us.

I agree with that completely. I find it worst amongst the provincial PC's who have brokered too many deals on the "Anyone but Dinning", "Anyone but Mar", Anyone But Lukaszuk" trains (even if this last train was a Prentice runaway anyways).

It's fractured the discourse within groups that should be like minded on principles.

[killer_carlson]

Originally Posted by New Era

How so? How does Trump foster positive change? What exactly is he, as POTUS, going to do that will change anything?

I think there are a large amount of Sanders and Trump supporters who believe that any change from the status quo will be positive, because the current system simply doesn't work for them.

That's about the only thing they agree on mind you.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by New Era

How so? How does Drumpf foster positive change? What exactly is he, as POTUS, going to do that will change anything?

I suppose that really, really optimistically, the entire political industry realizes "we don't have to do things the way we did 30 plus years ago", and the standard for what the ideal "electable" politician looks like is broadened so it doesn't just look and sound like Mitt Romney.

The problem is that Trump is, quite obviously, much worse.

In other words, if you had asked me a year ago, I would have said it would be nice if a politician came along and upset the status quo to the point where US politics wasn't so paint-by-numbers. That would have seemed like a good idea. But not this way.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

I think that's very dangerous thinking for a Clinton supporter. You are dismissing what your opponents supporters are saying is the #1 issue.

You can't tell them what is most important to them - you have to listen to what they tell you the issue is. Then you frame a solution and why your solution is better than the opponents.

If you dont, you only reinforce their belief that the system is broken and needs to be overhauled.

i'm not saying i agree or disagree with their opinion. I think Clinton is the best choice by the way. But I see very little upside to framing the Republican supporters as dumb hicks and telling them what the issues are going to be rather than listening to what their issues actually are.

I'm not dismissing the issue at all. I know it's an issue. So why are they supporting the guy who outright says he's part of the problem? He brags about being a crony, about paying for favours, about greasing the wheels. He said so right on the debate stage!

It's like saying "hey, I'm really concerned about climate change, so I'm voting for the guy who denies it exists and brags about how much his company pollutes".

Or "This is a Christian nation, built on Christian values, and we need more of that, so I'm voting for the guy who openly mocks those exact things and lies to my face about it".

It doesn't make sense. Even though the second one is actually happening too. Same guy!

[sworkhard]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

I think there are a large amount of Sanders and Trump supporters who believe that any change from the status quo will be positive, because the current system simply doesn't work for them.

That's about the only thing they agree on mind you.

There are actually quite a few things they agree on, some of the biggest which are:

1. Get (big) money from special interests and corporations out of politics.
2. Level the playing field so that the poor(er) and working class can compete with the rich. They don't agree on how this should be done except for #1.
3. Increase the competitiveness of the united states compared to the rest of the world. Sanders supports want to achieve this with cheap or free education while Trump supporters want to do this with lower taxes.

Further, it's clear that they don't think any change would be good; just witness how hostile the two groups are towards each other.

In my opinion, If Trump somehow manages to get #1 done, he'll probably get a second term, even though it would make it more difficult to get the rest of his agenda done (imagine if politicians actually represented the people who voted for them instead of the people who payed for them)

[sworkhard]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

He brags about being a crony

No he doesn't and he didn't, at least not in the same sense that he attacks his opponents for it. He brags about about buying influence and making other politicians his pawns/cronies. He claims that since he doesn't need to take other people's money, he's not a pawn like the people he pays. It's been a central part of his message from the beginning.

FWIW, Crony is usually used to describe a friend of someone rich or powerful who benefits from the relationship, not the rich and/or powerful people themselves.

Edit:

The interesting thing about this is, if he is still buying politicians, that he might have an inordinate amount of power as POTUS, which is something that should concern people.

[killer_carlson]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I'm not dismissing the issue at all. I know it's an issue. So why are they supporting the guy who outright says he's part of the problem? He brags about being a crony, about paying for favours, about greasing the wheels. He said so right on the debate stage!

It's like saying "hey, I'm really concerned about climate change, so I'm voting for the guy who denies it exists and brags about how much his company pollutes".

Or "This is a Christian nation, built on Christian values, and we need more of that, so I'm voting for the guy who openly mocks those exact things and lies to my face about it".

It doesn't make sense. Even though the second one is actually happening too. Same guy!

I can't say for sure, but i think the belief is that Trump is the most likely to clean it out. Possibly because he knows how the game works?

[Matata]

Originally Posted by New Era

How so? How does Trump foster positive change? What exactly is he, as POTUS, going to do that will change anything?

The last few presidents haven't given me much faith in a presidents ability to place the will of the people over the interests of big money. Trump would have both the knowledge and experience with big money to conceivably do real harm to them. This requires a leap of faith that Trump is playing a game right now and has/is preparing for the next steps.

I'm also fine with the idea of throwing a wrench into the machine just to see what happens. Trump seems like a pretty nasty wrench.

What I've written above still seems absurd to me and far from an ideal situation, but it might be better than another turd sandwich.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by sworkhard

No he doesn't and he didn't, at least not in the same sense that he attacks his opponents for it. He brags about about buying influence and making other politicians his pawns/cronies. He claims that since he doesn't need to take other people's money, he's not a pawn like the people he pays. It's been a central part of his message from the beginning.

FWIW, Crony is usually used to describe a friend of someone rich or powerful who benefits from the relationship, not the rich and/or powerful people themselves.

Well I guess we can split hairs. The people he buys influence from are either rich or powerful or both, and they are all buddy-buddy in palm-greasing. If you don't want to call him a crony, fair enough.

On a related note, he's the greediest, but certainly not the wealthiest, guy in the world, but everyone seems to take him on his word that he can't be bought. I don't buy that for a second. Looks like Sheldon Adelson is going to give his campaign a hundred million bucks. I don't think anyone believes there aren't strings attached to a donation like that.

[sworkhard]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Well I guess we can split hairs. The people he buys influence from are either rich or powerful or both, and they are all buddy-buddy in palm-greasing. If you don't want to call him a crony, fair enough.

On a related note, he's the greediest, but certainly not the wealthiest, guy in the world, but everyone seems to take him on his word that he can't be bought. I don't buy that for a second. Looks like Sheldon Adelson is going to give his campaign a hundred million bucks. I don't think anyone believes there aren't strings attached to a donation like that.

Agreed. I suspect that on this issue it's really going to depend on how he views himself. Is he in it primarily for the money or is his ego so large that he fancies himself as the savior of America? If it's the latter, he might actually do something about money in politics. If it's the former, it's more likely he'll make it worse than better.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Matata

The last few presidents haven't given me much faith in a presidents ability to place the will of the people over the interests of big money.

That's because the President doesn't have the control over domestic policy. This is what I'm driving at, proof of the lack of understanding how American politics work. Congress drives domestic policy. The Executive and Judicial are supposed to provide the balance to the motivations of congress. Unfortunately there has not been much balance because of the concerted efforts of Congress, and especially the activist judges existent on the Supreme Court. The balance in the system has been destroyed by activist interests in Congress and the SCOTUS. That has to be fixed or the system will remain broken.

Trump would have both the knowledge and experience with big money to conceivably do real harm to them. This requires a leap of faith that Trump is playing a game right now and has/is preparing for the next steps.

I'll call bull#### on this sentiment. Trump is a failed businessman multiple times over. He is owned by foreign interests. This is one of the reasons he refuses to release his returns. He is very aware the level of embarrassment it would cause his campaign to find out just how little net worth he has, who his silent partners are, and what a failure he actually is. Trump is a charismatic SOB, but to say he has knowledge and experience to do anything other than self-promote is inaccurate. Trump is a sociopath who is in this for himself and the gain in power and money this process will provide. He doesn't want to change anything, he wants to profiteer from the exercise.

I'm also fine with the idea of throwing a wrench into the machine just to see what happens. Trump seems like a pretty nasty wrench.

The Presidency is not the machine that is broken. The congress, the SCOTUS and the federated system is what is broken. These need major overhauls and nothing the President says is going to change any of this. These changes must come from the people and by the people. Until they are informed enough and smart enough to recognize how the system is stack against them they will not have the tools to change what is broken.

What I've written above still seems absurd to me and far from an ideal situation, but it might be better than another turd sandwich.

You want to stop chowing down on turd sandwiches? Then change the system. Vote your Congressman and Senator out of office. Clean house at the State level. Vote in people that smart and have track records of success in approaching complex matters and implementing simple pragmatic solutions. Vote in people who have a belief in the common good, and not ideology. If someone can't discuss issues based on compromised positions they have no right being in politics. Governing is not about imposing your ideological position on others, it is about finding solutions that address the needs of all people fairly and equitably. When ideology comes into play it leads to gridlock. I'll take 435 Bernie Sanders in Congress and another 100 of him in the Senate. Give me 535 representatives that follow the desires of his or her constituents and actually abide by the constitution. At that point you will see positive change take place in Washington. But that is only the start. You also need to clean house at the state level as they prevent effective federalization of important programs that affect all people. Politics in the United States needs an enema, and only the people can shove that hose up the ass of the establishment.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

By and large their issues revolve around appeals to racism, which is a political position in decline as demographics in key swing states change.

Have you seen what is going on with the_donald on Reddit?

I think you are underestimating the amount of anti-muslim sentiment there is out there and the growing amount of pushback on "PC Culture", especially amoung the younger demographics. That is a position that will appeal to quite a few people across a broad spectrum.

[nik-]

First, the_donald Reddit is not a good indicator. It's basically 4Chan.

Second, they do appeal to racism, but they really are starting to appeal to a real disenfranchisement with the system as other are saying here. There are legitimate gripes about the American political system for a lot of people that Donald Trump is resonating with. This to me is scary because if he starts building this non-fringe support, and support from people that you can't just dismiss as racist, he could legitimately win.

Add to that the fact that Clinton is basically a symbol of what so many hate in this system, left leaning people who are sick of her just might not even bother voting if they have to vote for her. They won't vote for Trump, they just won't vote at all.

Donald Trump could actually win and that's horrifying.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Have you seen what is going on with the_donald on Reddit?

I think you are underestimating the amount of anti-muslim sentiment there is out there and the growing amount of pushback on "PC Culture", especially amoung the younger demographics. That is a position that will appeal to quite a few people across a broad spectrum.

I'm talking about broad demographic trends.

White people can get angrier and more conservative, but just like New York and California went blue from red on the backs of younger liberals with money and minorities without it, so too are other states beginning to turn purple.

The more Trump talks about building a wall so mexican's can't get into America, the harder it will be to attract the latino vote in areas like Arizona that continue to see a broad demographic shift.

John McCain is feeling the impact:

Eight years after he was the Republican presidential nominee, Sen. John McCain appears headed toward his toughest re-election fight yet, in no small part because of presumptive GOP presidential standard-bearer Donald Trump.

Rep. Ann Kirkpatrick, the Democratic Senate candidate who is neck-and-neck with McCain in polls, has relentlessly gone after McCain for the senator’s support – no matter how tepid – of Trump.

McCain has hardly shown enthusiasm for Trump, only saying he would support the party’s nominee (while planning to skip the GOP convention in Cleveland). And he’s privately warned that Trump could hurt his own bid. Politico reported on audio from a fundraiser where McCain is heard saying, “If Donald Trump is at the top of the ticket, here in Arizona, with over 30 percent of the vote being the Hispanic vote, no doubt that this may be the race of my life.”

But Kirkpatrick’s campaign is hammering any connection it can between McCain and Trump, settling for nothing short of denunciation by the sitting senator.

“John McCain’s supporting Donald Trump despite declaring Trump ‘dangerous’ and characterizing Trump's supporters as ‘crazies,’” Kirkpatrick campaign spokesman D.B. Mitchell told FoxNews.com. “It's clear McCain's 'straight talk' days are over.”

McCain’s campaign, meanwhile, has blasted Kirkpatrick as “siding with the liberal establishment.”

The race is a snapshot of the conflicted relationship high-profile Republican candidates across the country could have with the presumptive presidential nominee. The jury is out on whether, on balance, he would help or hurt congressional candidates.

But for McCain, Trump’s impact is even being felt in the Republican primary.

One of his opponents, Alex Meluskey, a businessman and talk radio host, cited an internal campaign poll showing most respondents would be more likely to vote for a businessman who never ran for office over a career politician – and claimed the “Trump phenomenon” would be good for him.

“Any time you have an outsider businessman, that absolutely favors us,” Meluskey told FoxNews.com.

McCain also is facing opposition from Kelli Ward, a doctor who resigned her state Senate seat last year to run full time for the U.S. Senate. She is touting a resounding GOP straw poll victory over McCain earlier this month at the Arizona Republican State Convention and is pushing a campaign theme of “bold, fresh and fearless,” to contrast McCain’s status as a longtime Washington insider.

The Republican primary is Aug. 30, just one day after McCain turns 80.

But it’s the expected November race that’s causing headaches for the senator this year. During his five decisive Senate victories, the relatively moderate McCain has rarely had a real challenge in the general election.

“He usually has more concern in the state over who his primary challenger will be," Barbara Norrander, a political science professor at the University of Arizona, told FoxNews.com. “Democrats have had a hard time recruiting someone viable to oppose him.”

This year could be different. A Merrill Poll in March found McCain leading Kirkpatrick by just one point, while a Behavior Research Center poll in April showed the two tied at 42-42 percent.

This is coming straight from the progapanda mouthpiece Fox News: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016...-his-life.html who themselves are undoubtedly trying to distance themselves from trump as well.

[T@T]

For all that's wrong with The Donald you have to give him credit for using what's wrong with America to his advantage, he openly attacked Mexico and China for using slave labor as a tool to steal jobs, he attacked Apple,Carrier,Ford and other large american companies by name for shutting down manufacturing and go for slave labor.

I personally know a machinist who made auto parts for over 20 years, he started in 1993 with a wage of $22.00 hr, by 2003 he was just under $30.00 hr, in 2009 after an imposed wage cut he was making $25.00. Now he's working in a Toledo car wash for scraps because the company moved all manufacturing to Mexico in 2013.

Even without the move to Mexico if you break it down the $22.00(1993) that wage should have been about $35.00 hr by the time they shut down and moved for the $25/day employees.

When he says NAFTA and oversee's trade is killing america(and canada) he's 100% right. Wages going down, greedy billionaire owners like Steve Jobs selling out american jobs to add to their coffers is whats wrong. Trump played the game and now he's exposing it.

[Azure]

Well obviously he is going after a lot of the stuff that makes Americans angry. No problem with that as long as they are not racist, sexist or bigoted.

I think Trump doesn't do most of the stuff he is saying and actually follows a lot of the principles he talked about in the 90s. He is just saying whatever it takes to be elected.

Which is concerning.

I do think he is a better candidate than Hillary though. I think a lot of Americans are sick of establishment politics and she represents pretty much everything that is wrong with American politics.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Azure

Well obviously he is going after a lot of the stuff that makes Americans angry. No problem with that as long as they are not racist, sexist or bigoted.

I think Trump doesn't do most of the stuff he is saying and actually follows a lot of the principles he talked about in the 90s. He is just saying whatever it takes to be elected.

Which is concerning.

I do think he is a better candidate than Hillary though. I think a lot of Americans are sick of establishment politics and she represents pretty much everything that is wrong with American politics.

He's just trying to be a republican, as soon as this is over he'll go back to his demo ways.

[Vulcan]

dp for some reason