Justin Trudeau says marijuana should be legalized

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

In an objective world, everyone drinks a quantity of water determined by their body weight, and only eats a state-portioned bowl of hyper-nutritious gruel 5 times daily.

Reminds me of Logan's Run.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by pylon

I am all l for legalizing the stuff, in fact I am all for legalizing everything. It reduces crime, empties out prisons...etc. People need to be responsible for their choices. It wouldn't make me do drugs, as I have no interest in personally.

However, this idea that pot is harmless, and a magic elixir for everything is the biggest crock of crap. I was just in Vancouver, and went into the little pot palace there, just to buy a pipe as a gift for a friend who's a 'connoisseur'. I have never seen a bigger bunch of space cadets, right from the clientele to the staff working there. I have a couple friends from high school who are heavy users, and have maintained heavy usage into their 40's, and at their most sober moments, they are only half there. Like they are permanently distracted by a squirrel or something. One of them has a smokers cough so brutal, it sounds like he has inhaled a pound of butter, and he doesn't smoke cigarettes ever.

Recreational users? Yeah, I know a lot of people that will light up once a month or so and they are just like anyone else. However, the few people I know that maintain it as a lifestyle? They are basically unemployable, and to be honest, bordering on having a mental disability that would qualify them for hockey helmets and leashes in public. It isn't without it's side effects. And anyone who thinks so, is just trying to justify an addiction.

Not everyone who smokes weed regularly is a goofy hippie. As I've said in a previous post I know 2 self made millionaires who have smoked every day for 40+ years. Hell you are aware of some yourself. Willie Nelson, Cheech and Chong have been smoking for 40+ years and they look great for their age. Not to mention they are very down to earth and intelligent people. MANY celebrities smoke pot and have for years. It's not like they are fading from stardom or becoming brain dead idiots over the years.

How many lives have you seen ruined over Alcohol? I guarantee it's a factor of at least 10 times more than people whose lives were ruined over weed. Nobody is on the corner of the street begging for money so they can get themselves a gram of weed to take the edge off.

Bob Saget agrees

NSFW!

[AcGold]

Pylon raises a really good point though. There are many strains that have a very sedative effect, this sedative effect naturally leads to extreme sedentary behavior and that's, in my opinion, the real cause of the burned out space cadet. It's that sedative aspect of some cannabis strains and the incredibly low metabolism that goes along with not moving much. This admittedly is experiential and subjective from my point of view.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

So hypothetically then, based on your numbers Woob.

Assume a controlled population of 10,000,000 (arbitrary number) regular teenagers.

7/1000 = .007 * 10MM = 70,000 people with a chance to manifest normally.

42/1000 = 0.042 * 10MM = 420,000 people with a chance to manifest using marijuana heavily.

This article discusses some of the costs and burdens placed on society in Canada of mental health issues:

http://strategy.mentalhealthcommissi...estment-en.pdf

There looks to be a few different numbers thrown around in that study of the various costs, but lets use a conservative estimate of $150,000 of incremental lifetime costs to the medical system.

Keep in mind this does not consider the additional burdens placed on families, friends, employers, etc.

420,000 - 70,000 = 350,000 incremental mental health issues experienced in the controlled population of 10,000,000.

350,000 * 150,000 = $52.5Bn in incremental costs.

Pretty interesting when $ values start to be assigned. Obviously this is very rudimentary, but the premise is valid.

The premise is valid, but filling in the rudimentary aspects are where it can start to fall apart.

Canada's population under 20 is about 7,800,000, and that includes people over 18. And people aged 15-19 is under 3 million (which is probably the group most likely to begin smoking). It'd be nice if 14 was included. Anyone starting earlier than that is a HUGE outlier IMO. So I would venture to guess that the population at risk is closer to 5 million.

Your math also assumes that EVERYONE in this subset begins to smoke, which is obviously not the case (if the graph from a few pages regarding Colorado is applied, only about 6-10% of youths smoke weed).

And then, on top of that, while the statistics show a relationship, it is still "a chance" Not everyone in that final subset will end up with a mental health issue.

And, while mental health is no joke, were talking about a range from minor depression to full on psychosis. Only a few of these things require full-blown monitoring and pose a danger to other people.

Lastly, I think you have to assume that improved education programs will weed out a good chunk of kids who may have otherwise started. IE I never started smoking cigarettes because that black lung the DARE people showed us is burnt into my brain. But no one ever went into the negative effects of weed (which I didn't start smoking until I was 19), and even though logic dictates smoking anything is going to do something at least similar to your lungs, much of the information at the time was that "it's really not that bad, and certainly not as bad as cigs" the latter is true, the former, not so much.

Not to mention that a good chunk of tax revenue will be dedicated to education and mental health programs, so that also offsets your final number, and might even end up being a net benefit (ie, even though we may spending more, we overall spend less because of the revenue generated).

[2Stonedbirds]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Canada moves quicker then the USA when it comes to changing policy, yet several states have been able to do this in under 2 years.

5 years isn't optimistic.

The party plans to have legalized it by spring 2017. This will be in violation of 3 global drug treaties Canada has signed on to, never mind irritating other countries who are against legalization.

Hoops to jump through, and treaties to walk away from. I'll believe it when it passes royal accession.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Marijuana is not good for you and in an objective world, it wouldn't be legal.


That being said, the costs associated with policing it and the enforcement of those regulations (prison time etc...) do not outweigh the negatives.

Just like booze, objectively, it probably should be illegal, but it's not worth it.

Big Macs and Cokes aren't good for you either...you could say those should be illegal too but where does it stop?

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by 2Stonedbirds

The party plans to have legalized it by spring 2017. This will be in violation of 3 global drug treaties Canada has signed on to, never mind irritating other countries who are against legalization.

Hoops to jump through, and treaties to walk away from. I'll believe it when it passes royal accession.

Well we won't irritate the USA which is the only thing that really matters for Canada. Other Countries have been coming around as well. A recent UK poll shows the majority want it legalized/decriminalized as well. These treaties are in place because the law is in place. You change the law so obviously you have to change the treaties. These are the technical aspects that will be worked on over the course of the next year. The sooner it's in place, the sooner jobs will be created and much needed revenue will be generated.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Well we won't irritate the USA which is the only thing that really matters for Canada. Other Countries have been coming around as well. A recent UK poll shows the majority want it legalized/decriminalized as well. These treaties are in place because the law is in place. You change the law so obviously you have to change the treaties. These are the technical aspects that will be worked on over the course of the next year. The sooner it's in place, the sooner jobs will be created and much needed revenue will be generated.

To me if we're hurrying into this because of that sole reason, we're going to do it wrong or half assed.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

So hypothetically then, based on your numbers Woob.

Assume a controlled population of 10,000,000 (arbitrary number) regular teenagers.

7/1000 = .007 * 10MM = 70,000 people with a chance to manifest normally.

42/1000 = 0.042 * 10MM = 420,000 people with a chance to manifest using marijuana heavily.

This article discusses some of the costs and burdens placed on society in Canada of mental health issues:

http://strategy.mentalhealthcommissi...estment-en.pdf

There looks to be a few different numbers thrown around in that study of the various costs, but lets use a conservative estimate of $150,000 of incremental lifetime costs to the medical system.

Keep in mind this does not consider the additional burdens placed on families, friends, employers, etc.

420,000 - 70,000 = 350,000 incremental mental health issues experienced in the controlled population of 10,000,000.

350,000 * 150,000 = $52.5Bn in incremental costs.

Pretty interesting when $ values start to be assigned. Obviously this is very rudimentary, but the premise is valid.

Doesn't this assumes that usage increases among youth as a result of legalization? It's only incremental usage that you would need to factor in. And annecdotaly pot is easier to get them alcohol amount teens.

I think the bigger fear of legalization my be a movement of teens from pot to the next easily available substance as pot becomes as controlled as alcohol.

[Cyclops]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

As I've mentioned on this site before, anyone who employs a pot "lifestyle" and reads "high times" magazine is a goof.

And anone who goes on wine tours and drinks a glass with every meal is a goof as well? Do you call every addict a goof?

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

To me if we're hurrying into this because of that sole reason, we're going to do it wrong or half assed.

Of course that's not the sole reason. All I'm saying is that when money is involved you can bet they're not going to take their sweet time on it. They won't allow political circle jerking to slow down the process.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by 2Stonedbirds

The party plans to have legalized it by spring 2017. This will be in violation of 3 global drug treaties Canada has signed on to, never mind irritating other countries who are against legalization.

Hoops to jump through, and treaties to walk away from. I'll believe it when it passes royal accession.

International law is a consent-based system. Unless there is some sort of penalty written into those treaties, there's pretty much nothing they can do to prevent Canada from walking away from them.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Cyclops

And anone who goes on wine tours and drinks a glass with every meal is a goof as well? Do you call every addict a goof?

Look, I think we can pretty much lump all of the various "enthusiasts" into the goof category. Ever have a five-minute conversation with someone who's super into craft beer and homebrewing? It's exhausting.

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Not everyone who smokes weed regularly is a goofy hippie. As I've said in a previous post I know 2 self made millionaires who have smoked every day for 40+ years. Hell you are aware of some yourself. Willie Nelson, Cheech and Chong have been smoking for 40+ years and they look great for their age. Not to mention they are very down to earth and intelligent people. MANY celebrities smoke pot and have for years. It's not like they are fading from stardom or becoming brain dead idiots over the years.

How many lives have you seen ruined over Alcohol? I guarantee it's a factor of at least 10 times more than people whose lives were ruined over weed. Nobody is on the corner of the street begging for money so they can get themselves a gram of weed to take the edge off.

Bob Saget agrees

NSFW!

Man his point is that weed isn't this magic medicine that cures all that people like to crow about. It has some benefits but it gets talked about sometimes like its apples or exercise and it's not. No one talks about alcohol being like that, so I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up. People recognize alcohol for what it is, a mind altering substance that's unhealthy in large regular doses. It would just be nice for people to talk about weed the same way because it is the exact same

[peter12]

Isn't THC the additive that makes you high? Why would smokers purchase an inferior product just because it is regulated?

[peter12]

Originally Posted by GGG

Doesn't this assumes that usage increases among youth as a result of legalization? It's only incremental usage that you would need to factor in. And annecdotaly pot is easier to get them alcohol amount teens.

I think the bigger fear of legalization my be a movement of teens from pot to the next easily available substance as pot becomes as controlled as alcohol.

Good lord, it absolutely does. There are three separate sources in this thread that indicates this is a real problem in increasing the supply of legal drugs.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Big Macs and Cokes aren't good for you either...you could say those should be illegal too but where does it stop?

Dude, that's what I'm saying. People trying to claim that pot is some miracle cure not harmful thing is totally false.

It's bad. SO is trans fat, so is cigarettes etc... all to varying degrees.

You have to balance personal freedom v. benefit to society and in my opinion, society is better off having pot legalized.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Cyclops

And anone who goes on wine tours and drinks a glass with every meal is a goof as well? Do you call every addict a goof?

First, having a glass of wine with your meal doesn't make you an addict, nor does it alter your state of mind, so they aren't comparable.


But yes, celebrating an addiction does in fact make you a goof.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by peter12

Good lord, it absolutely does. There are three separate sources in this thread that indicates this is a real problem in increasing the supply of legal drugs.

Can you point me toward them. I am interested in reading them but also too lazy to dig back through this thread. But also you would still need to look at the Delta increase in users when factoring in new costs and not the absolute number of users.

[PsYcNeT]

I'm still waiting for a link to someone claiming it's as healthy as riding a bike or eating a bowl of fibre or whatever that doesn't come from some crackpot website like SpiritScience.com or NaturalNews.com

I would like to believe that there is massive "silent majority" of people who enjoy it on an infrequent basis, much like alcohol, that aren't the kind of twat strawmen you guys are railing against.

Also it's kind of interesting to be on the other side of a literal "THINK OF THE CHILDREN" argument for once. I notice no one has used the macros yet however.