Justin Trudeau says marijuana should be legalized

[peter12]

Originally Posted by rubecube

And this study shows a decrease for the past 15 years and a much larger sample size, so it seems that you're being selective with your evidence.

http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/The+....8j41jrLV.dpbs

"The most recent survey on drug use in the general population was conducted in 2009. However, due to methodological changes, the data are not comparable with those of previous surveys (1997, 2001 and 2005). Hence, recent trends cannot be described.

That's interesting, and would appear to support your position. I do note that the authors admit their sample, and survey procedures invalidate their results from being compared with previous surveys. That is certainly a strike against.

When taking a deeper look, it appears that peaks and troughs are strongly correlated with the availability of drugs. I remember reading that the coffee shops serving marijuana had been greatly reduced around the time your study was written. It appears that I was correct.

It is striking that the trend in cannabis use among youth in the Netherlands rather parallels the four stages in the availability of cannabis identified above. The number of adolescent cannabis users peaked when the cannabis was distributed through an underground market (late 1960s and early 1970s). Then the number decreased as house dealers were superseding the underground market (1970s), and went up again after coffee shops tookover the sale of cannabis (1980s), and stabilised or slightly decreased by the end of the 1990s when the number of coffee shops was reduced.

http://www.parl.gc.ca/Content/SEN/Co...ion/korf-e.htm

[2Stonedbirds]

While I don't really have a dog in this fight, and would rather see tax revenue generated from what people are going to do regardless of the law...

There are people using arguments that are rallied against in for example, the ongoing US shooting thread. "People are gonna get it anyways so legalize it and educate." Replace "weed" with "firearm" and the people who are pro weed will instantaneously have their heads explode.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Regarding addictiveness. MJ is definitely psychologically addictive, but not physiologically addictive.

As much as I am pro legalization, I do think MJ boosters are a little too biased towards portraying MJ as benign.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by peter12

That graph shoes a year over year increase for 10 years. In the social sciences, we would call that pretty much evidence.

As I said, your hypothetical optimal outcomes don't come close to mitigating the potentially massive risks.

Why doesn't your opinion change after seeing that study? In a previous post, you insinuated that the risks were minuscule. Well, clearly, they are quite profound.

So how does the year over year increase from the past 10 years have anything to do with the legalization if that's only been in effect for a year? Is the point that marijuana use is increasing in general? I wouldn't dispute that. I would venture to say that if you saw a graph over the same time period for adults, it would be largely identical (I'm going to do a little more research later, don't really want to be searching weed research at work). You're right about one thing, and that is that the stigma is definitely fading away. Do you think that's because we've seen a pretty big surge in information about weed and how much of the messages propagated over the last 1/2 century are largely unfounded. Even today's research into the negative impacts end up being mostly debunked as no different than many legal substances we allow today (and in many cases more tame).

People are realizing it's not even close to as bad as Reefer Madness would have you believe, but people making decisions on this stuff today still mostly come from that generation.

Originally Posted by Fozzie_DeBear

Regarding addictiveness. MJ is definitely psychologically addictive, but not physiologically addictive.

As much as I am pro legalization, I do think MJ boosters are a little too biased towards portraying MJ as benign.

I can agree with this. As someone who smokes pretty regularly, I have had times where I wanted to quit and it's definitely not easy. And it's not that it's chemically addictive, like nicotine, but it defintiely forms a habit and can alter the way you live for sure. But I also think this is a (probably negligible) benefit to legalization too. I know that if it was legal I would actually smoke less. Why? Because I wouldn't have to buy it in bulk quantities to make it worth it, and thus, wouldn't have a big bag of herb on my desk when I come home most days.

I'm definitely not one to say everyone should be doing it, or that it has no negative qualities or anything. Only that negative effects are no worse (and in many cases more tame and less pervasive in our health system) than other things we currently allow so we should have the freedom to choose just like anything else. And that I do firmly believe that legalization is the best option we have for attempting to curb youth use. The only other option is crazy harsh punishments for using.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by peter12

That's interesting, and would appear to support your position. I do note that the authors admit their sample, and survey procedures invalidate their results from being compared with previous surveys. That is certainly a strike against.

When taking a deeper look, it appears that peaks and troughs are strongly correlated with the availability of drugs. I remember reading that the coffee shops serving marijuana had been greatly reduced around the time your study was written. It appears that I was correct.

http://www.parl.gc.ca/Content/SEN/Co...ion/korf-e.htm
"The most recent survey on drug use in the general population was conducted in 2009. However, due to methodological changes, the data are not comparable with those of previous surveys (1997, 2001 and 2005). Hence, recent trends cannot be described. - See more at: http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/The+....GpssTGiB.dpuf

I will say that I open to the idea that you're right, but I think the two-year sample size in Colorado and the methodology used is hardly conclusive. I would have liked to see what the averages were like by month. Was there an immediate spike post-legalization and then a steady reversion, or has it been an increasing acceleration.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I will say that I open to the fact that you're right, but I think the two-year sample size in Colorado and the methodology used is hardly conclusive. I would have liked to see what the averages were like by month. Was there an immediate spike post-legalization and then a steady reversion, or has it been an increasing acceleration.

The evidence I just provided is pretty much convincing. Youth use spikes after legal accessibility increases.

[rubecube]

I should add that I think there should be heavy restrictions on the number of dispensaries allowed to operate, per peter's coffee shop comment. What we have right now in Victoria is completely absurd.

[peter12]

But if you restrict dispensaries, you have the same problem with the black market. It is a substance terribly harmful to young people, and it should be severely restricted. I would be open to a decriminalization or a leniency towards small possessions, first-time offences, or young people using the drug.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by peter12

The evidence I just provided is pretty much convincing. Youth use spikes after legal accessibility increases.

Right, but is it a one-time occurrence or do the amount of heavy users increase? It seems it's more the former than the latter.

Here's another study from Portugal which basically shows that lifetime levels do spike, but past month and past year usage remains about the same.

http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Portugal#Prevalence

In the context of school populations, the results of national studies have shown that the use of drugs that had been increasing since the 90’s declined for the first time in 2006 and 2007, noting up in 2010 and 2011 again an increase of drug use in these populations, alerting to the need for investment in prevention. In all studies carried out in 2010 and 2011, cannabis remains the drug preferentially used (prevalence of lifetime use ranged from 2.3% in students from 13 years old and 29.7% in 18 years old), with values close to the prevalence of use of any drug (between 4.4% in students of 13 years and 31.2% in 18 years). Followed by prevalence of lifetime use far below, cocaine, ecstasy and amphetamines among younger students, and amphetamines, LSD and ecstasy among the older ones. Despite the increases registered in the prevalence of drug use between 2006/2007 and 2010/2011 especially cannabis but also other drugs such as LSD and amphetamines, the prevalence’s of use of any drug among younger students (13-15 years) remain lower than the ones registered in 2001/2003."

[peter12]

I am also strongly of the belief that people don't take drugs just because they "like" them. It is highly dependent on a complex relationship between many social factors. Social isolation, for instance, is the number one cause of drug use within certain populations.

As a caveat, I also do not want to give the impression that I all for mass imprisonment of people as a deterrent.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by peter12

But if you restrict dispensaries, you have the same problem with the black market.

I doubt it. There are two dispensaries within a block from my work, and about 8 within a six block radius around where I live (maybe more). I don't think halving those is going to increase the black market.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by peter12

I am also strongly of the belief that people don't take drugs just because they "like" them. It is highly dependent on a complex relationship between many social factors. Social isolation, for instance, is the number one cause of drug use within certain populations.

So your answer is to incarcerate these people or impose conditions on them that would further isolate or ostracize them from society, such as a criminal record?

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by Sliver

You don't know their mental health conditions had anything to do with weed. Like it's crazy you'd even make the insinuation. In fact, maybe they smoked to help chill out their minds if they were having a tough time and remained undiagnosed.

I wasn't trying to insinuate that smoking pot caused them to develop mental illness.

Some people will develop mental illness without using drugs like marijuana. Some people are at a higher risk of developing a mental illness, and it appears that marijuana can contribute to that development (i.e. pushing them over the proverbial edge).

Like I mentioned before, I am certainly not a medical professional, nor do I have a thorough enough understanding of how the medical profession conducts their research on this type of thing.

All I was attempting to do was raise the awareness of studies that link marijuana usage to an increased chance of manifesting a mental illness. Once again, I don't know the validity of those studies, because that's not my area of expertise.

But, if by smoking marijuana, there is a quantifiable link to an increased chance of developing a mental disorder then that becomes a valid point in any discussion about legalizing marijuana.

The social implications of that are massive.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I doubt it. There are two dispensaries within a block from my work, and about 8 within a six block radius around where I live (maybe more). I don't think halving those is going to increase the black market.

Ugh, the West Coast.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by 2Stonedbirds

While I don't really have a dog in this fight, and would rather see tax revenue generated from what people are going to do regardless of the law...

There are people using arguments that are rallied against in for example, the ongoing US shooting thread. "People are gonna get it anyways so legalize it and educate." Replace "weed" with "firearm" and the people who are pro weed will instantaneously have their heads explode.

Yeah. We must be missing the part where you can kill someone else with weed. These things are definitely the same.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by peter12

Ugh, the West Coast.

Yeah, I'm a pretty socially liberal dude and even I'm kind of thinking it's a bit much.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

I wasn't trying to insinuate that smoking pot caused them to develop mental illness.

Some people will develop mental illness without using drugs like marijuana. Some people are at a higher risk of developing a mental illness, and it appears that marijuana can contribute to that development (i.e. pushing them over the proverbial edge).

Like I mentioned before, I am certainly not a medical professional, nor do I have a thorough enough understanding of how the medical profession conducts their research on this type of thing.

All I was attempting to do was raise the awareness of studies that link marijuana usage to an increased chance of manifesting a mental illness. Once again, I don't know the validity of those studies, because that's not my area of expertise.

But, if by smoking marijuana, there is a quantifiable link to an increased chance of developing a mental disorder then that becomes a valid point in any discussion about legalizing marijuana.

The social implications of that are massive.

As I said, terrifying. Absolutely terrifying. One of my favourite journalists on this issue has compiled a list of the mass shooters who had established convictions of marijuana possession. Speculative, YES. Tenuous, YES. Possible, absolutely.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Yeah, I'm a pretty socially liberal dude and even I'm kind of thinking it's a bit much.

I bought five of the same sweaters in different colours from Brooks Brothers, and match them different, but same pairs of khakis, and blue oxford shirts. Think how I feel.

[2Stonedbirds]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Yeah. We must be missing the part where you can kill someone else with weed. These things are definitely the same.

Impaired driving has never killed anyone. Gotcha.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Yeah. We must be missing the part where you can kill someone else with weed. These things are definitely the same.

Broken families, wasted lives...