Justin Trudeau says marijuana should be legalized

[peter12]

Originally Posted by polak

100% annual growth would mean it doubled every year....

Sorry, annual growth over the last year has "only" been 20%.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

Can anyone comment on if there is a definitive connection between marijuana use and development of severe psychosis in your early twenties?

There is a reasonable amount of literature on it, but I am far from a medical expert, so I really don't know. http://medicalmarijuana.procon.org/v...stionID=000220

Personal anecdotal evidence: Two people very close to me developed serious mental illnesses in their early twenties. Both were frequent (multiple times daily) smokers, and both now have mental health issues that will be lifelong ordeals.

Obviously factors like family medical history, etc. should be considered too.

I posted a recent study earlier in the thread that had some very convincing evidence. I also have had a close friend develop serious mental illness after smoking pot for most of his teen years. Within his immediate family, acute mental illness is not an issue.

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by peter12

I posted a recent study earlier in the thread that had some very convincing evidence. I also have had a close friend develop serious mental illness after smoking pot for most of his teen years. Within his immediate family, acute mental illness is not an issue.

Thanks.

One of my friends smoked pot multiple times a day throughout his teens and early twenties and developed severe bi-polar disorder. He has a family history (mother), but also has several siblings who do not have any signs of the disorder. Chance? Coincidence? Maybe a bit of both.

The other friend was a similar story, but his family has no history of mental health issues. He developed severe schizophrenia in his early twenties.

[Drak]

On the other hand, look at all the folks that have smoked pot for years and decades that haven't developed any mental issues. Pot isn't the cause of those issues, but people who are predisposed to those issues can be greatly affected by using it.

[Fuzz]

So if the government legalizes, and sells in stores requiring ID, at a reasonable price(not way above black market), wouldn't it follow that there would be far fewer dealers around to sell to the youth because they have lost their market? Logically, wouldn't it be tougher for minors to access in a legalized market?

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Drak

On the other hand, look at all the folks that have smoked pot for years and decades that haven't developed any mental issues. Pot isn't the cause of those issues, but people who are predisposed to those issues can be greatly affected by using it.

It probably is the result of myriad factors, except, really who would want to take that risk?

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

So if the government legalizes, and sells in stores requiring ID, at a reasonable price(not way above black market), wouldn't it follow that there would be far fewer dealers around to sell to the youth because they have lost their market? Logically, wouldn't it be tougher for minors to access in a legalized market?

Or they would do what Big Tobacco has done and mine other markets.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

Just seems like a point you'd have to concede, obviously normalizing marijuana consumption results in increased use. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be done but it should be something that gets consideration.

A certain subset of our population will smoke up no matter what, as a result it's most likely the most responsible financial move for our government to pivot from spending money on enforcement to collecting money from taxes. Probably the right move but there is some collateral damage that weed buffs seem to want to deflect at all costs.

It's not deflecting at all costs. It's trying to understand why we allow these costs to be incurred for other substances that have been proven to have worse effects, but not for this, at the expense of crazy amount of resources going into a problem that can't be fixed outside of giving crazy harsh punishments for it.

If there is an issue with increased youth use, at least we will have substantial tax profits from the sale of the substance to be used for proper drug education courses and treatment programs.

The extent of education we get on these substances as kids is "This stuff is bad, don't do it." They never go in to how it actually effects your brain, why it shouldn't be used until you are a fully-developed adult, if at all, etc.. The current way we educated youth on drugs is practically begging for them to try it themselves to test the effects.

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by Drak

On the other hand, look at all the folks that have smoked pot for years and decades that haven't developed any mental issues. Pot isn't the cause of those issues, but people who are predisposed to those issues can be greatly affected by using it.

The point though is that apparently it can greatly increase your risk, regardless of if you are predisposed to mental illness or not.

The majority of people that partake will not end up developing a mental illness, that's statistics. That doesn't change the issue that you may be willfully increasing your chance of developing a severe mental disorder, or address how selfish a choice that is.

In my experience, it is the families of those who develop the disorder that bear the brunt of the responsibility for caring and providing for the individual.

Who are you to potentially condemn your parents or siblings to a lifetime of caring for you when your choices may have amplified the chance of developing a mental health disorder? Who are you to make the average taxpayer responsible for your well being for the rest of your life due to those choices?

Obviously, people are going to develop the disorders regardless of substance intake, it is unavoidable.

But what about those who willfully increase their risk of developing, and subsequently do?

Pretty slippery slope.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by peter12

Or they would do what Big Tobacco has done and mine other markets.

OK, maybe. But they wouldn't be selling pot to kids though. Which is one of the goals here, is it not? There is also a much smaller market for harder drugs than there is pot so there would be fewer dealers, less profit etc.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

Can anyone comment on if there is a definitive connection between marijuana use and development of severe psychosis in your early twenties?

There is a reasonable amount of literature on it, but I am far from a medical expert, so I really don't know. http://medicalmarijuana.procon.org/v...stionID=000220

Personal anecdotal evidence: Two people very close to me developed serious mental illnesses in their early twenties. Both were frequent (multiple times daily) smokers, and both now have mental health issues that will be lifelong ordeals.

Obviously factors like family medical history, etc. should be considered too.

I'd like to see more info on it, too. It seems, as with most substances, that people with mental issues are going to be more inclined to indulge and overindulge in the first place, leading to more longterm damages.

Anyways, peter, I'm still not sure you can definitively determine that legalization has a causal and not correlative effect. I read the link to the graph Dion posted and it's not exactly an example of great research. All it asks is "past month marijuana use," which tells me nothing about the habits surrounding marijuana. Are these kids smoking it regularly, or is this just a once in a while type thing?

Here's another study done on the Netherlands (data is old though), and while it does show an increase in use since legalization, it's still well below the amount of people who are using marijuana in countries such as the UK where it's still prohibited.

http://www.parl.gc.ca/Content/SEN/Co...ion/korf-e.htm

I think focusing on the increased use among youth only looks at part of the picture, too. How does legalization effect issues such as incarceration rates, dependency on prescription or "harder" drugs, etc.?

http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Neth....tpRDxj1e.dpbs

Here we have data that shows a steadily decreasing amount of marijuana use among 12-18 year olds in the Netherlands over the past 15 years, as well as almost half the amount of lifetime marijuana users, and 2/3 less the amount of heroin users, but I think these are the big facts that really strike me:

Per capita spending on criminal justice system (in Euros)
1998 - USA €379
1998 - Netherlands €223

Prison Population Rate per 100,000 population
2011 USA - 716 3
2012 Netherlands - 82 3

[indes]

Does anyone seriously believe kids have a hard time getting weed now? Legalizing will not make it easier as it couldn't possibly be any easier than it is now. Everyone knew where to get it from Jr High on...

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

The point though is that apparently it can greatly increase your risk, regardless of if you are predisposed to mental illness or not.

The majority of people that partake will not end up developing a mental illness, that's statistics. That doesn't change the issue that you may be willfully increasing your chance of developing a severe mental disorder, or address how selfish a choice that is.

In my experience, it is the families of those who develop the disorder that bear the brunt of the responsibility for caring and providing for the individual.

Who are you to potentially condemn your parents or siblings to a lifetime of caring for you when your choices may have amplified the chance of developing a mental health disorder? Who are you to make the average taxpayer responsible for your well being for the rest of your life due to those choices?

Obviously, people are going to develop the disorders regardless of substance intake, it is unavoidable.

But what about those who willfully increase their risk of developing, and subsequently do?

Pretty slippery slope.

I'll have to go back and read peter12's study, but how do we know that the development of said mental disorders are not a result of mixing weed with alcohol, smoking weed that's been produced in a certain way or laced with another substance (I personally think lacing is a myth but I threw it in anyways), or a result of marijuana with extremely potent THC levels? The latter two issues are much more easy find solutions to in an environment where marijuana is legalized and regulated than in a system where the black market is the primary source for marijuana.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by indes

Does anyone seriously believe kids have a hard time getting weed now? Legalizing will not make it easier as it couldn't possibly be any easier than it is now. Everyone knew where to get it from Jr High on...

I'm assuming it's only those that are guessing at how buying weed worked as a kid, not those with experience.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by indes

Does anyone seriously believe kids have a hard time getting weed now? Legalizing will not make it easier as it couldn't possibly be any easier than it is now. Everyone knew where to get it from Jr High on...

I honestly think it's easier to get weed as a kid than it is as an adult. Maybe not where I live because we have six god damn dispensaries on every block, but if we didn't I'd have to at least make three or four phone calls to find some. In high school I'd just walk to the smoke pit and ask around.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

Thanks.

One of my friends smoked pot multiple times a day throughout his teens and early twenties and developed severe bi-polar disorder. He has a family history (mother), but also has several siblings who do not have any signs of the disorder. Chance? Coincidence? Maybe a bit of both.

The other friend was a similar story, but his family has no history of mental health issues. He developed severe schizophrenia in his early twenties.

I can't speak to the bi-polar, but if you have schizophrenia, you've had it since birth. It typically stays dormant until your twenties. There has however been study's on mind altering drugs like LSD and Mushrooms that can speed up the rate in which the brain is affected by schizophrenia.

I have no shortage of anecdotes as well. I know 2 self made millionaires who have smoked weed for 40+ years. I have a friend who used to suffer from depression and took prescription pills which would make him very moody, almost as if he was bi-polar. He made the transition to weed and is always in great spirits now with some direction in his life. A family member had to take steroids to alleviate joint pain which have terrible side effects and can't be used long term. Since switching to THC spray she has been able to stop taking the pills and has full pain free mobility. Any friend I've EVER had who smokes cigarettes and weed, are only ever looking to quit smoking cigarettes and haven't had any good reasons to quit smoking weed. However it's drastically harder for them to cut cigarettes than it is to cut weed.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

Thanks.

One of my friends smoked pot multiple times a day throughout his teens and early twenties and developed severe bi-polar disorder. He has a family history (mother), but also has several siblings who do not have any signs of the disorder. Chance? Coincidence? Maybe a bit of both.

The other friend was a similar story, but his family has no history of mental health issues. He developed severe schizophrenia in his early twenties.

You don't know their mental health conditions had anything to do with weed. Like it's crazy you'd even make the insinuation. In fact, maybe they smoked to help chill out their minds if they were having a tough time and remained undiagnosed.

[Drak]

Originally Posted by peter12

It probably is the result of myriad factors, except, really who would want to take that risk?

I know quite a few pot smokers. Lets face it, lots of folks use it now and then. Out of all of them I do know of one person who has some mental health issues that run in his family, which has also affected him, and his high pot usage amplifies his psychosis. Folks like him should refrain. Teens shouldn't be smoking it. But adults should be able to make their own choices when it comes to pot usage.


Here are some interesting articles

http://psychcentral.com/news/2013/12...nia/63148.html

http://www.leafscience.com/2014/03/0...schizophrenia/

[Coach]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

Who are you to potentially condemn your parents or siblings to a lifetime of caring for you when your choices may have amplified the chance of developing a mental health disorder? Who are you to make the average taxpayer responsible for your well being for the rest of your life due to those choices?

Obviously, people are going to develop the disorders regardless of substance intake, it is unavoidable.

But what about those who willfully increase their risk of developing, and subsequently do?

Pretty slippery slope.

How is this any different than chain smokers who greatly increase their risk of life-threatening illnesses? Or alcoholics with increased liver disease and more risk of being abusive people?

Look, we can argue all day about the negative effects of the drug (there are plenty, it's a freaking drug), but the point is that you are not going to stop people from doing it. It's been illegal forever and I know more people that smoke weed than smoke cigarettes or even drink with regularity. You either have to make it crazy illegal that no one would risk it, or make it legal so you can control the quality, the age limit, and at lease attempt to reduce the ability for a youth to obtain it. As it stands, there is nothing blocking them outside of dealers with a moral compass enough to not sell to kids. That's it. How can this be considered safer than sealed products with labels and ingredients, coming from licensed suppliers with predictable effects?

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Another aspect that I don't think anyone has touched on is how this can affect education.

With weed being legalized we're able to do more study's on it and actually teach about the harm that it has on adolescent brains. When I was in school all we heard about was that weed is a drug and all drugs are bad. There was no science or case studies involved at that time. The more I learned about weed, the more I realized that weed really isn't this bad drug I was taught and eventually started smoking (fortunately not until I was 17). Education is a big deal and I think a good chunk of teens will see the value in waiting until they are adults.