Bennett plays in the NHL and we have a pretty good idea of what he will become.
As far as anyone on these boards has actually seen, Puljujarvi has played a handful of games against juniors.
There is over-rating going on in this thread, and it is the same over-rating that happens every year: the massive overvaluation of the shiny new toys.
NHL scouts and GMs are pretty good these days are projecting the very top of the draft list. It's dumb to say that we know what we have in a guy who has played 80 NHL games, but a player who is a lock to go top-3 in the draft is just a mystery box. We know what we have in Michael Backlund. But Auston Matthews hasn't played a game in the NHL, so I guess only fool who falls in love with the new shiny would make that swap.
I didn't suggest the Flames could or should trade Bennet for the 3rd overall pick. But that's about what CBJ would ask, and that's probably fair value, or close to it.
Fans overrating their own players is nothing new. But it's still dumb when it happens. If it were up to the fans of Nashville and Columbus, the Seth Jones for Ryan Johansen trade never would have happened. You'd have to be absolutely crazy to trade a franchise d-man/clear #1 centre for a whining troublemaker who hasn't proven anything/ 2nd pairing defenceman who has never scored more than 27 points.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to CliffFletcher For This Useful Post:
Again, I'm not saying I WOULD OFFER THAT, I'm simply reiterating another poster's proposal that was shot down for the fact it wasn't good enough to entice CBJ.
Post in question I was referring to, again I didn't PROPOSE this trade, I simply disagree that this POST BELOW THIS LINE is "not enough" for CBJ to even look at it.
Jesus Christ people, get off the train.
I never said that you did. I suggested that the conversation was stupid/pointless.
It's like saying they would want Monahan + Gaudreau for him. Well of course they would want that, but there is no way they are getting that.
I just don't see the point of these conversations unless there is an attempt to find a middle ground that both teams would consider. Because I hope it's pretty obvious to everyone that the Flames would not offer anything close to what was being proposed.
This also illustrates why it is so rare to see trades of the top few picks. The hope that they hold makes people irrational about their value (yes, including GMs).
It also shows (yet again) how much fans MASSIVELY overvalue picks and prospects.
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Enoch Root For This Useful Post:
Sounds like you're underrating him actually, perhaps substantially. Bennett was the #1 ranked prospect by CSS and Redline in his draft year and its not like his draft year was horrible. He has a lot more than 60 point upside. His upside is as high as Monahan's or higher.
I respect your hockey/prospect knowledge so I'm curious to know what you think is Bennetts potential? "He has a lot more then 60 point upside", you say, so what would that upside be? Like how many goals/points per season is his upside and when do you see him reaching it?
Don't kid yourself and think that hype of a top draft pick doesn't sell tickets.
All of your examples delivered. Hype alone without performance does not get you very far. 18 year old Puljujarvi might not even play in the NHL next year.
The Following User Says Thank You to automaton 3 For This Useful Post:
I respect your hockey/prospect knowledge so I'm curious to know what you think is Bennetts potential? "He has a lot more then 60 point upside", you say, so what would that upside be? Like how many goals/points per season is his upside and when do you see him reaching it?
Good question. I think Bennett has 30+ goal potential, 70+ point potential. He could achieve it as early as next season ala Monahan but it could easily take another year. Right now I think he needs to continue to fill out and add strength so that he can power his way around the net and along the boards more easily. And I think he would need better line mates to achieve those totals. He needs confidence and comfort at centre and I think a good share of that was achieved by moving him back to centre late last season. I think his confidence lacked at the beginning of the season but we saw with his stretch with Backlund where he erupted for a ton of goals that he gained confidence over the year.
So there are some things in his control (adding strength) but some things out of his control (better line mates). Some of it is just experience as well.
Gonna be interesting to see what our wingers look like as the offseason goes on. I still think Treliving is looking to upgrade that area before next fall through trade, or UFA or the draft.
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Flames Draft Watcher For This Useful Post:
All of your examples delivered. Hype alone without performance does not get you very far. 18 year old Puljujarvi might not even play in the NHL next year.
18 year old Puljujarvi should not play in the NHL next year, he's not ready imo. Needs some time at lower speed to get his coordination together and maintain his confidence.
22 year old Puljujarvi will be among the best players in the NHL.
Dennis MacInnis from ISS on why they have Puljujarvi ahead of Laine and talk on the defensemen this draft. He thinks there may be a run on defensemen after the first one goes (something I believe as well) and he thinks there's a lot of good puck movers.
Basically it is his opinion that the Canucks want a centre. He believes Dubois is the guy they covet. He does think they could entertain moving down to take a d-man (or IMO perhaps Brown) if Dubois is not there. He acknowledges there is a good chance that EDM does not end up drafting at #4 and that basically may dictate how things go. He's not convinced VAN wants a winger although obviously Tkachuk is a great prospect.
Man already the speculation is rampant about lots of trade down scenarios for the two teams ahead of us. It's getting very intriguing.
The Following User Says Thank You to Flames Draft Watcher For This Useful Post:
Good question. I think Bennett has 30+ goal potential, 70+ point potential. He could achieve it as early as next season ala Monahan but it could easily take another year. Right now I think he needs to continue to fill out and add strength so that he can power his way around the net and along the boards more easily. And I think he would need better line mates to achieve those totals. He needs confidence and comfort at centre and I think a good share of that was achieved by moving him back to centre late last season. I think his confidence lacked at the beginning of the season but we saw with his stretch with Backlund where he erupted for a ton of goals that he gained confidence over the year.
So there are some things in his control (adding strength) but some things out of his control (better line mates). Some of it is just experience as well.
Gonna be interesting to see what our wingers look like as the offseason goes on. I still think Treliving is looking to upgrade that area before next fall through trade, or UFA or the draft.
Bennett struggles with getting around defenders. Yes he pulled of a couple sweet dekes this season but those usually didn't work for him. I think that is something he really needs to work on as the inside outside moves don't work like they did in Junior. Bulking up as you said and using brute force might be better for him than trying to play like Johnny 2.0
"I've already had 4 or 5 teams call me already. I've made it known we would look to trade down if the right deal is there." Chiarelli.
I'm really hoping that we're one of those teams. While not a Finn, Dubois would be a very nice fit on this team, and the price for acquisition most likely wouldn't be completely outrageous (although probably would still have to overpay considering the trade partner).
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Table 5 For This Useful Post:
Bennett struggles with getting around defenders. Yes he pulled of a couple sweet dekes this season but those usually didn't work for him. I think that is something he really needs to work on as the inside outside moves don't work like they did in Junior.
Inside out moves work fine, but you need experience on not telegraphing them which Bennett lacks and open ice which Bennett wasn't getting on the wing.
Jason Spezza still goes for the toe drag once a game. 1.08 PPG in the central division playoffs
__________________
"May those who accept their fate find happiness. May those who defy it find glory."
We will be able to do a lot of speculating on this after the Dallas pick is known.
I'm not sure the Dallas pick changes much if at all for trade up scenarios.
If they are fine with picks then you offer #6 + FLA's 2nd + 3rd. Or you offer #6 + 35. I think that should be enough value in terms of picks.
If they want NHLers then I'd offer #6 + Wideman (1/3 salary retained) if he agrees to waive. I really like Nakladal but EDM has a real need for RHD in particular and powerplay QB's. If we re-sign him I could see us offering #6 + Nakladal for #4 + something.
There's so many assets available that I think Treliving could get it done quite easily if he wants to. Are you suggesting they'd ask for #6 + #28? That one is a bit of an overpayment IMO but I still might do it. I think they might have to kick a later pick back our way in that scenario.
The Following User Says Thank You to Flames Draft Watcher For This Useful Post:
Bennett struggles with getting around defenders. Yes he pulled of a couple sweet dekes this season but those usually didn't work for him. I think that is something he really needs to work on as the inside outside moves don't work like they did in Junior. Bulking up as you said and using brute force might be better for him than trying to play like Johnny 2.0
Think about how Johnny 1.0 would have done in the NHL at 19.
Bennett is going be a better player.
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to MrMastodonFarm For This Useful Post:
Chychrun maybe have the best physical tools but tries to do too much at times and ends up turning it over in bad spots or fails to make the simple, correct play. Is it something he can overcome? Or is it something that limits his upside?
Yeah, I've been thinking a bit about Chychrun and what his problem is. I'm thinking he's so use to being the guy that as you say, he's still trying to do too much. He's also trying to get away with moves that work at a lower level, but not at the World's. When he simplifies his game with some good coaching, he should be fine.
Yeah, I've been thinking a bit about Chychrun and what his problem is. I'm thinking he's so use to being the guy that as you say, he's still trying to do too much. He's also trying to get away with moves that work at a lower level, but not at the World's. When he simplifies his game with some good coaching, he should be fine.
Here's the Draft Analyst on his opinion of Juolevi vs Chychrun in a thread on HF about them
"Juolevi has had brutal games. He's held to a different standard by the media. Don't know why. But it might boil down to one guy being a safe pick and the other guy being a risk, but anyone who's watched Chychrun all season knows he's capable of playing a safe/smart game. It's such BS. Chychrun was knocked for his offense in the first half. So what does he do? His production explodes. What do they do? Call him risky and a low IQ.
To me, Chychrun IS the best defenseman because he can do either or. He can play a shutdown role or carry the offense on his back. Juolevi does neither. He's never been asked to. He's a vanilla prospect who does a lot of things well, but when did Hunter ever ask Juolevi to change the momentum of a game or season? Chychrun has.
To me, it's inconceivable how analysts have soured on him. They either watched him play once or twice or are just using the TPG/U18 as the end-all, be-all. It's one thing to say Chychrun dropped because of other forwards. Perfectly understandable. To say Chychrun has been passed by other dmen in his draft class is straight up bananas."
"I've already had 4 or 5 teams call me already. I've made it known we would look to trade down if the right deal is there." Chiarelli.
I really hope the Flames aren't one of these teams. I think they'll be getting a good player at #6 either way. They should be focusing their disposable assets on a goalie, not a forward prospect.
The Following User Says Thank You to MarkGio For This Useful Post:
