[News] Flames Management Want to Create a "Black & Blue" Team

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

This post is really lame. I expect a little more from you. Your argument here is that I only see what I want to see. Super. Well played.

You argue that I am being biased. Then you state that they DO stand up for each other, they DO battle hard, they ARE hard to play against and they ARE punishing. Yet you offer absolutely nothing but your own opinion to back it up. Good thing you're not biased!

My argument is that when you see a lot more, the negative lives in you. The Hawks are a gritty team? On an absolute level, maybe, but on a relative level? You really think I can't look through an 82 game season and find anecdotes to "prove" the Flames are tough? I could point to Wideman vs Kesler nonsense, or Johnny/Jooris vs Kadri, or Bennett vs Cowen, or Engelland vs two guys. The problem? You would counter with "that doesn't happen often".

Yet you point to opinions of a team like the Blackhawks and then point to anecdotes that make it to sportscenter. I guess the Penguins are a bundle of dirt because Letang is suddenly the next Scott Stevens?

I stand by my "lame" post - you can't possibly have as fair a judgement of a team you don't watch 82+ times a year as a team you not only do, but have emotional attachment to.

As to the team size stat - you, as someone very committed to the statistical side of the game, should understand as well as anyone that team size is an average stat. A LOT of information gets lost in averages. I don't care how big the goalie is. I don't care how big the 4th line guy that plays 5 minutes is.

Team size is an "average" stat, yes. But it's easy to filter out key players and focus on them.

You say Colborne circa 2016 isn't big/doesn't play big. I don't even like Colborne so I feel disgusting defending him. How did he have 8 deflection goals + 122 hits? You don't get deflection goals from the perimeter. You don't get nearly two hits a game passing up checks. I say "Colborne didn't play big in the past, now does play big, but he still doesn't play very smart".

You say a guy like Ferland or Bouma is a 4th line 5 minute a game player? These are guys over the past two seasons who have been on our first and 2nd lines. Maybe they're not "true 1st liners" but neither are many, many other top 6 players in the world. There are plenty of very average forwards - guys like Brouwer and Burrows - who made a living bringing grit to more skilled lines. But you'd be right they're no substitute for skilled size, which is what guys like Carter, Kopitar, Toffoli, Gaborik, and Pearson bring to their teams' top 6. 5 Guys who don't play the style that people associate with Kings hockey. The only guys people associate with Kings hockey are Dustin Brown, Dwight Kings, Milan Lucic, etc. On average that means one "black and blue player" in a top 6 is sufficient for the most Black and Blue team in the league except when talking about the Flames. I'd be willing to bet a prime Sam Bennett will be as intimidating as a prime Dustin Brown. But the Flames are soft. Because.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

But you'd be right they're no substitute for skilled size, which is what guys like Carter, Kopitar, Toffoli, Gaborik, and Pearson bring to their teams' top 6. 5 Guys who don't play the style that people associate with Kings hockey. The only guys people associate with Kings hockey are Dustin Brown, Dwight Kings, Milan Lucic, etc. On average that means one "black and blue player" in a top 6 is sufficient for the most Black and Blue team in the league except when talking about the Flames. I'd be willing to bet a prime Sam Bennett will be as intimidating as a prime Dustin Brown. But the Flames are soft. Because.

So you agree we need to add skilled size? That was my whole point so I'm not sure why you spend so much time disagreeing with what I've said. I think you're getting hung up on Burke's usage of the term Black and Blue. Black and blue may simply be us playing harder and more physical in our zone and finishing a few more checks up front. Black and Blue doesn't have to be some sort of massive change in style of play. They want to play possession hockey, that should be the massive stylistic difference that people should be focusing on.

Monahan is easier to check than Kopitar. Bennett isn't fully filled out and thus isn't as physical and punishing as he will be. Ferland hasn't quite developed into a regular top two line contributor. Colborne is one of our big, skilled guys but even he lacks the pure strength of a Lucic. Colborne can get shoved down and knocked over much more easily. There are players on the Flames who have the potential to be powerful players in Colborne, Ferland and Bennett.

Adding another skilled power forward or two will make the Flames MUCH harder to play against. It seem like you agree in your way but just don't want to admit it.

[Calgary4LIfe]

People seem up at arms over "Black and Blue" and "Needing to get bigger".

Why?

The Flames are NOT going to go out and draft refrigerators for the sake of being refrigerators. Come on.

What has Treliving been saying since he came on board? "This team needs to get bigger and harder to play against" - but what was the caveat? "Size needs to come with skating ability and skill as well" - he has stated NUMEROUS times that this team is not going to go out and grab a bunch of 6'4" + physical players who can't skate and make plays.

If you want proof, look at who the Flames drafted last year - Mangiapane and Kylington. Look who they traded a 1st and 2nds for - Hamilton!

Why people are insinuating this team is going to add size and size only, does not coincide with what has been happening since Burke has come on board, and since Treliving has come on board. Heck, even Feaster in his last 2 seasons before Burke joined kept saying that this team needed more size.

No, this team is not going to trade away Gaudreau for Zac Rindaldo. No, this team is not going to trade Brodie for Phaneuf.

This team is just going to continue to draft skill, character and IQ above all else - but is going to prefer them in larger sizes - everything being equal.

They are not going to continue drafting Kanzig, Smith and Bruce unless they feel that Kanzig, Smith and Bruce have legitimate shots at becoming NHL players.

No, this team is not going to bring back the enforcers.

This team is simply going to slowly keep adding size. That's it.

They traded Granlund (a soft undersized player) for Shinkaruk (a more skilled, a bit more feisty and physical but smaller player).

They didn't jump on the Bickell grenade - he would have without a doubt added size and truculence, and could have been had for free. Probably could have been had for a sweetener too of some sort. He is still not part of the Flames' org.

If you look at who the Flames drafted since Burke has come to the team, is there really a difference overall? Has Burke got the Flames to stop drafting skill? Or hockey IQ? Has the players with size come as unskilled muckers?

Heck, even when they acquired Bollig it was with the belief that Bollig could become a decent player and provide a bit of depth scoring and PK ability. Bollig has underachieved in that standpoint. They didn't acquire Bollig for his fisticuffs only - they would have just retained McGrattan and even brought up Colton Orr.

This team is NOT going to trade away skill - at whatever the size - just to get bigger. They are simply going to keep doing what they are doing - trying to add more skilled players with size. That's not a bad thing at all.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

My argument is that when you see a lot more, the negative lives in you. The Hawks are a gritty team? On an absolute level, maybe, but on a relative level? You really think I can't look through an 82 game season and find anecdotes to "prove" the Flames are tough? I could point to Wideman vs Kesler nonsense, or Johnny/Jooris vs Kadri, or Bennett vs Cowen, or Engelland vs two guys. The problem? You would counter with "that doesn't happen often".

Yet you point to opinions of a team like the Blackhawks and then point to anecdotes that make it to sportscenter. I guess the Penguins are a bundle of dirt because Letang is suddenly the next Scott Stevens?

I stand by my "lame" post - you can't possibly have as fair a judgement of a team you don't watch 82+ times a year as a team you not only do, but have emotional attachment to.



Team size is an "average" stat, yes. But it's easy to filter out key players and focus on them.

You say Colborne circa 2016 isn't big/doesn't play big. I don't even like Colborne so I feel disgusting defending him. How did he have 8 deflection goals + 122 hits? You don't get deflection goals from the perimeter. You don't get nearly two hits a game passing up checks. I say "Colborne didn't play big in the past, now does play big, but he still doesn't play very smart".

You say a guy like Ferland or Bouma is a 4th line 5 minute a game player? These are guys over the past two seasons who have been on our first and 2nd lines. Maybe they're not "true 1st liners" but neither are many, many other top 6 players in the world. There are plenty of very average forwards - guys like Brouwer and Burrows - who made a living bringing grit to more skilled lines. But you'd be right they're no substitute for skilled size, which is what guys like Carter, Kopitar, Toffoli, Gaborik, and Pearson bring to their teams' top 6. 5 Guys who don't play the style that people associate with Kings hockey. The only guys people associate with Kings hockey are Dustin Brown, Dwight Kings, Milan Lucic, etc. On average that means one "black and blue player" in a top 6 is sufficient for the most Black and Blue team in the league except when talking about the Flames. I'd be willing to bet a prime Sam Bennett will be as intimidating as a prime Dustin Brown. But the Flames are soft. Because.

You're seriously spinning out of control.

I never said Colborne doesn't play big. I agree that when he started going to the net more, he became more effective.

I never said Bouma or Ferland were 4th line, 5 minute a game guys. I love the way both of them play and I hope the Flames get a few more guys just like them.

As to your rant about the Kings, only you brought up Brown and King. I think Carter, Kopitar, Pearson and to some extent Toffoli are all pretty gritty players. Saying they have one black and blue guy in their top 6 shows that you really aren't getting what Burke was saying.

Everyone agrees that Bennett is tough and will be an intimidating player. Why are you trying to suggest anyone said differently.

You appear to be getting quite emotional about this. No one has said that the Flames players aren't as good as the players on other teams.

The point is that we need more of the tough, physical style on the team.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

So you agree we need to add skilled size

No, I don't agree we need ADD skilled size because we have size that is skilled. We need to add skill period - if it has size that's a bonus, not a prerequisite. You can say Monahan doesn't play big but he's only 21. You can say Bennett isn't fully developed but he will be eventually. We've all see progression from the likes of Bouma/Ferland probably will see the same from Hathaway/Grant/Shore/Elson. This team is growing organically and there's no glaring need for size. There's a glaring need for skill to catch up to a team we're not far off from, like the Blackhawks or Lightning (which is a far cry from Black and Blue Hockey). If it's skilled size that's awesome and I've never said otherwise, but if you gave me a chance to add Artemi Panarin, Onrdej Palat, Joe Pavelski, Tyler Johnson, Nikita Kucherov, Jonathan Drouin, Brendan Gallagher, Brian Refalksi, Doug Gilmour, Theo Fleury, Martin St. Louis, Mats Zuccarello, Anton Stralman I would still take that on this roster in an instant no matter what division we're in because:

1) It makes our current size - Bennett, Ferland, Bouma, Colborne more skilled in a sense of production.

2) On a separate line, it effectively draws defensive attention away from our current skill - Johnny Gaudreau

I have no bias against smaller players if they can play.
I have no preference between a team like the Kings or the Blackhawks. I want to win. Style is more aesthetic than people admit. And the FLames current roster is not as far off in terms of grit from where a team like the Blackhawks is at. The biggest difference I see? Hossa/Toews vs No Hossa/Toews. Well I can see a Bennett becoming a Toews, and I'm not sure where we acquire a HoFer like Hossa but you can probably piece together parts of what he brings to a line in two separate players. We have a guy like Jankowski in the wings who could maybe be part of that.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I have no bias against smaller players if they can play.

No, in fact it seems quite the opposite. It seems you are biased towards small, skilled players over big, skilled players. See wanting Keller over big, skilled guys. See bringing up the Lightning smaller players every other post.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

No, in fact it seems quite the opposite. It seems you are biased towards small, skilled players over big, skilled players.

No, I'm not. I'm biased towards skill, period. I'd just as gladly welcome a Kopitar, Thornton, Hossa, Getzlaf, and Benn.

That's totally different from preferring a Palat over a Lucic. I think Palat is just flat out more useful to his team. A Lucic brings a lot of aesthetics but I never believed he was as useful to the Bruins teams as Krejci, Bergeron, or Horton.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

No, I'm not. I'm biased towards skill, period. I'd just as gladly welcome a Kopitar, Thornton, Hossa, Getzlaf, and Benn.

Well then at #6 in a draft with a strong top end we should be aiming higher than 5'9 Keller.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Well then at #6 in a draft with a strong top end we should be aiming higher than 5'9 Keller.

It's not as strong as you think. You seem to think Matthew Tkachuk is a future superstar and all I see is Benoit Pouliot with a bit more piss n vinegar.

Look at my list in my sig. Who's ahead of 5'9" Keller? 6'2" Dubois. 6'3" Puljujarvi. 6'4" Laine. 6'2" Matthews. Whose ahead of every other defenseman? 6'2" Sergachyev.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

It's not as strong as you think. You seem to think Matthew Tkachuk is a future superstar and all I see is Benoit Pouliot with a bit more piss n vinegar.

Look at my list in my sig. Who's ahead of 5'9" Keller? 6'2" Dubois. 6'3" Puljujarvi. 6'4" Laine. 6'2" Matthews. Whose ahead of every other defenseman? 6'2" Sergachyev.

I have signatures turned off.

[DenverFlame]

Johnny Gaudreau - Sean Monahan - Matthew Tkachuk
Craig Berube - Joel Otto - Rocky Thompson
Chris Simon - Tim Hunter - Sandy McCarthy
Krzysztof Oliwa - Jason Wiemer - Brian McGrattan

Mark Giordano - TJ Brodie
Robyn Regehr - Cory Sarich
Bob Boughner - Todd Simpson

Brock Lesnar
Calgary Tower

?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

It's not as strong as you think. You seem to think Matthew Tkachuk is a future superstar and all I see is Benoit Pouliot with a bit more piss n vinegar.

Look at my list in my sig. Who's ahead of 5'9" Keller? 6'2" Dubois. 6'3" Puljujarvi. 6'4" Laine. 6'2" Matthews. Whose ahead of every other defenseman? 6'2" Sergachyev.

Seems like you underrate Tkachuk's skill for some reason. Not sure why.

Your draft list does show a preference for smaller players. Confirmed. The small skilled players have risen on your list vs the scouts. Haven't seen any scouting list that has Keller and Jost as high as you have them. This show either a bias towards small skilled players or a bias away from big players. Take your pick.

[CSharp]

If you're going to supply some older players in that lineup, there's no better power right winger who can also pass, score and fight in his prime than Iginla. I'd also put Joe Niewendyk in place of Monahan as well. That would be a frickin' awesome first line!

Originally Posted by DenverFlame

Johnny Gaudreau - Sean Monahan - Matthew Tkachuk
Craig Berube - Joel Otto - Rocky Thompson
Chris Simon - Tim Hunter - Sandy McCarthy
Krzysztof Oliwa - Jason Wiemer - Brian McGrattan

Mark Giordano - TJ Brodie
Robyn Regehr - Cory Sarich
Bob Boughner - Todd Simpson

Brock Lesnar
Calgary Tower

?

[Geeoff]

Originally Posted by DenverFlame

Johnny Gaudreau - Sean Monahan - Matthew Tkachuk
Craig Berube - Joel Otto - Rocky Thompson
Chris Simon - Tim Hunter - Sandy McCarthy
Krzysztof Oliwa - Jason Wiemer - Brian McGrattan

Mark Giordano - TJ Brodie
Robyn Regehr - Cory Sarich
Bob Boughner - Todd Simpson

Brock Lesnar
Calgary Tower

?

Can we put Brock with Johnny and Sean? I wanna see him take Taylor Hall to suplex city.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by DenverFlame

Johnny Gaudreau - Sean Monahan - Matthew Tkachuk
Craig Berube - Joel Otto - Rocky Thompson
Chris Simon - Tim Hunter - Sandy McCarthy
Krzysztof Oliwa - Jason Wiemer - Brian McGrattan

Mark Giordano - TJ Brodie
Robyn Regehr - Cory Sarich
Bob Boughner - Todd Simpson

Brock Lesnar
Calgary Tower

?

Tkachuk/Dubois-Monahan-Gaudreau
McGinn-Bennett-Ferland
Colborne-Backlund-Frolik
Bouma-Grant-Hathaway

Brodie-Hamilton
Giordano-Engelland
Jokipakka-Nakladal

Looks pretty Black and Blue to me with the right coach. Size, strength and physicality throughout the lineup. We only need a couple tweaks. Getting a big, strong, skilled player from our #6 pick would be ideal though.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Seems like you underrate Tkachuk's skill for some reason. Not sure why.

Your draft list does show a preference for smaller players. Confirmed. The small skilled players have risen on your list vs the scouts. Haven't seen any scouting list that has Keller and Jost as high as you have them. This show either a bias towards small skilled players or a bias away from big players. Take your pick.

Without your thorough analysis that ignores everything I ever actually talk about (Speed, Skill, Motor) I would never have realized that inverse-size is the reason I prefer Tyson Jost and German Rubtsov over Alex Nylander unlike "the scouts' lists".

[cannon7]

This is hilarious considering just 3-4 years ago the line about the Flames was that they need more skill and skating because the NHL was different now. I certainly am not a fan of Hartley's stretch pass system, but I don't see pulling a complete 180 as being the solution either. For every roster of giants like the Ducks and Kings, you have a roster of skill like the Hawks. I would rather see the Flames emulate the Hawks than the former, considering it is more rooted in reality. You can only pick from your options and "being a roster of 6'3" 220lbs bruisers" is not one of them.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Tkachuk/Dubois-Monahan-Gaudreau
McGinn-Bennett-Ferland
Colborne-Backlund-Frolik
Bouma-Grant-Hathaway

Brodie-Hamilton
Giordano-Engelland
Jokipakka-Nakladal

Looks pretty Black and Blue to me with the right coach. Size, strength and physicality throughout the lineup. We only need a couple tweaks. Getting a big, strong, skilled player from our #6 pick would be ideal though.

Agree - I actually don't think our forward group is as far away as some think. Especially if Monahan and Bennett can provide the physicality they did in junior - Monahan really can grow that part of his game IMO.

If you draft Tkachuk and maybe trade for a bigger RW RFA on a cap crunched team then you are probably there (trying to pry Kevin Hayes out of NY would be one of my priorities alongside getting a goalie - if not him then Schenn from PHI).

Gaudreau - Monahan - Hayes/Schenn
Tkachuk - Bennett - Ferland
Colborne - Backlund - Frolik
Bouma - Stajan - Hathaway

Jankowski, Agostino, Poirier, Pollock, Pribyl, Smith, Carroll would be guys on the farm team who are all over 6'1"

Mangiapane, Shinkaruk, Arnold, & Klimchuk as the smaller guys in the lineup on the farm.

[united]

Kane - Crosby - Panarin
Gaudreau - Bergeron - Kucherov
Cammalleri - Pavelski - Zuccharello
Duclair - Giroux - Atkinson

Brodie - Klingberg
Ghostisbehere - Vatanen
Krug - Spurgeon


Would not take any; too small not enough hitz!

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Without your thorough analysis that ignores everything I ever actually talk about (Speed, Skill, Motor) I would never have realized that size is the reason I prefer Tyson Jost and German Rubtsov over Alex Nylander unlike "the scouts' lists".

Well its really hard to make sense of your rationale since it seems to be inconsistently applied. Tkachuk has high end skill, intelligence and work ethic and you are down on him for no obvious reason. He was top 5 on 9 out of 10 scout's lists that Bob Mackenzie talked to. Consensus top 5 pick and you have him at 11. And you choose to compare him to Benoit Pouliot? Strange and very questionable all around. Seems very irrational to me.

Keller is super high on your list despite his size limitations that may limit his effectiveness in the NHL. I know the list makes sense if your own head but I can't make much sense of what you value. The way you go on about Datsyuk, Johnson, Palat and Kucherov all the time has to make me think you overrate small skilled players.

It seems that you ignore that size is a beneficial attribute and that lack of size is a detriment that has to be overcome. You try to ignore it completely it seems or to underrate its importance. Philosophically we'll never agree on the ideal makeup of a team or where prospects should rank in a draft.