[News] Flames Management Want to Create a "Black & Blue" Team

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

And some would say trying to build a physical team around that core is the only way we'll compete for a cup in the Pacific. I happen to think those people are right.

I don't think its enough to surround the core. You're core itself needs to be big if you want to be known as that type of team. Anaheim is big because Perry and Getzlaf are big, not because there's some big rando playing with them.

Our young core players are either not that big (ie. Gaudreau, Brodie), or if they are, don't necessarily play big (i.e. Hamilton). If they want to be known as big and bruising...they better draft someone who fits that mold ASAP, or you swap out what you currently have.

This is exactly though why this team really needed a Fin this draft...or atleast a guy like Dubois. We need big with skill.

[flylock shox]

Pretty clear the Flames need a bit more size, or at least a bit more of a physical element, but I don't see them as having the horses for that kind of thing.

They're going to have to add some physical veteran presence on D, and some talented physical wingers (at a minimum) up front.

I suppose they could make a couple of trades at the draft, pick up guys like Gauthier and Brown, but they're still going to need a couple of other, more developed pieces in the near term.

Hopefully their focus is less on size, and more on physicality. Either way, if they want one or the other with talent to boot, they're going to have to flip some pieces.

[stone hands]

the flames want to ice a squad of sam bennetts, not mcgrattons

you dont have to be a goon, you just have to go hard and not be afraid to mix it up like teows, whos not a big guy in the way that getzlaf is

the flames were not tenacious enough on the puck - hartley's hit and run style worked well because the flames have some spectacular players for it, but it doesnt fit the org's long term goal

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

I honestly should have stopped reading after a 6'5 Colborne.

A 6'5 Colborne has never played black and blue hockey and none of the players you listed are impact players.

Hamilton is but he's softer than Colborne.

It isn't about hitting or necessarily even being 'big bruising wingers'. Flames get hemmed in their own zone because they get out-muscled along the boards. I am also not advocating that they trade away their skilled players for physical players. They need to add big players who are SKILLED to compliment their existing smaller and highly skilled players. Guys who can cycle and also disrupt the cycle of opposing teams. That makes them tougher to play against - not necessarily 'black and blue' in the traditional sense, but definitely a much more difficult squad to play against.

The team is gradually getting bigger - both on the farm, and on the Flames themselves. It would be nice if they were more 'impact players', but many of those listed are strong complimentary players.

Also, it is actually wrong to say that Colborne has never played black and blue hockey - he has laid out some guys and has even fought this past season. I would agree that it isn't his type of game usually, but he definitely has had moments of it. Hamilton has done the same as well. Hamilton may not play that physical, but he has definitely become more physical as the season progressed, wouldn't you say?

Originally Posted by Bend it like Bourgeois

C'mon. Are you also going to count losing Hanowski and Breen? Would you buy it if someone said the flames were way more black and blue with big jay boumeester patrolling the blue line?

Burke arrived with the black and blue speech. 3 years later he's making the same one and the flames are no closer to being able to trade body blows with the likes of the kings and blues. If that's where he wants to go the team had better shift gears.

I am not sure what you mean in the first paragraph actually, but I will take a shot...

Most of the Flames larger players on the farm I would call more 'unskilled'. Poirier is skilled. Smith was a fairly skilled 'goon' who his junior team used on the PK and PP, and I look forward to seeing him develop. They acquired Grant who is fairly big and strong, Shore, Van Brabant, Hathaway that really impressed in his call-up. Agostino has some nice size, speed and even a bit of jam too. There are more.

In years past, those larger players were more unskilled than this current crop. I am not saying they will all make it from the farm. Hathaway sure looks like he will. Poirier I bet does as well. The rest we will have to wait and see.

I am just not sure why you disagree with the notion that the Flames have increased in size, however. I haven't made any calculations, but without looking I would bet that the Flames jumped up in the size rankings relative to all the other NHL teams post-trade deadline this year, versus post-trade deadline the year before - and probably have slowly been climbing the rankings.

IIRC, they were the smallest team in the NHL in 2012. Yes, I would say this team is definitely headed in the right direction from that aspect, and yes, Burke has been 'delivering' I guess.

[savemedrzaius]

Burke always says this stuff. When he was with the Leafs he couldn't stop talking about truculence and pugnacity. Then he trades for Kessel. The guy is such a blowhard. Most overrated person in the biz, IMO.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by savemedrzaius

Burke always says this stuff. When he was with the Leafs he couldn't stop talking about truculence and pugnacity. Then he trades for Kessel. The guy is such a blowhard. Most overrated person in the biz, IMO.

Well, trading for Kessel doesn't mean he isn't trying to build a tough team. He has insisted all this time that I have heard him talk about truculent teams that they also need skill, and that there is room for smaller skilled players. It is just that they need to be surrounded by the beef. So, I wouldn't call the Kessel trade hypocritical at all.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Peculiar you think those "people are right" when the non-physical Chicago Blackhawks (2015 vs Ducks, 2014 vs Blues, 2013 vs Kings), San Jose Sharks (2016 vs Kings), Calgary Flames/Edmonton Oilers/Vancouver Canucks (2015 vs Kings), Nashville Predators (2016 vs Ducks), 2015 Wild (2015 vs Blues), have managed to eliminate the three true "Black and Blue" teams in the Western Conference playoffs for 3 of the last 4 seasons. And the 2014 Sharks and 2014 Blackhawks were a Vlasic injury and an overtime bounce, respectively, from knocking out the 2014 Kings.

2013 Hawks had Bickell (6'4, 223), Handzus (6'5, 215), Hjalmarsson, (6'3, 197), Seabrook (6'3, 220), Stahlberg (6'3, 209), Toews (6'2, 201). Plus grinders/goons like Bollig and Carcillo. They had size, strength and power at important positions throughout the lineup. You say they are non-physical? I don't buy it. The main point however is that they had key players in key positions with size/strength. And even if those players aren't super physical, their size makes them harder to shut down, harder to check, etc.

We can do the same for the other teams. It's not about adding grinders and goons but the Flames have needed and continue to need to add some size/strength/power at important positions. Look at all those Hawks players who played important roles and had size and strength.

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

The Flames being too small, too soft, all that is just an excuse for the Flames not being good enough, period, for a variety of reasons including skill, depth, goaltending, systems, and experience. The best puck possession team I've ever witnessed was built around Pavel Datsyuk, not Ryan Getzlaf or Dustin Brown.

The Flames are too small and too soft and it's not an excuse, it's reality. Detroit has had a history of having big, strong powerful players like Holmstrom, Franzen, Bertuzzi, Shanahan surrounding their smaller, more skilled players. At least when they were successful they did

I mean how can anyone deny that the Flames are not too small/weak? What impact players do we have that are 6'2+ and 200+ lbs? Monahan who doesn't play a very powerful style and thats it. Unless you're telling me Engelland and Jokipakka and Colborne are impact players.

The Flames need more size/strength. It's undeniable. Saying we need to be black/blue is probably just a bit of hyperbole from Burke but the fact we need more size/strength/power at key positions is painfully obvious. It's obvious when you scan our roster and look at the size of the key players (http://flames.nhl.com/club/roster.htm) and its obvious from watching them play on the ice vs Pacific division teams. With the new playoff format we know the road to the cup HAS to go through teams like ANA, SJ and LA. We don't have the size and strength to match up against any of those 3 teams.

I'm not sure how you can say we're big enough as is. It's painful obvious we aren't.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

2013 Hawks had Bickell (6'4, 223), Handzus (6'5, 215), Hjalmarsson, (6'3, 197), Seabrook (6'3, 220), Stahlberg (6'3, 209), Toews (6'2, 201). Plus grinders/goons like Bollig and Carcillo. They had size, strength and power at important positions throughout the lineup. You say they are non-physical? I don't buy it. The main point however is that they had key players in key positions with size/strength. And even if those players aren't super physical, their size makes them harder to shut down, harder to check, etc.

<snip>

Detroit has had a history of having big, strong powerful players like Holmstrom, Franzen, Bertuzzi, Shanahan surrounding their smaller, more skilled players. At least when they were successful they did

No one would call those teams "black and blue teams", or that Detroit played a physical brand of hockey.

I mean how can anyone deny that the Flames are not too small/weak?

I don't think anyone is saying that. But it's one thing to say we could use more size and strength, and it's another to want a team that plays that style, and it's the second part that's nonsense with the core we have. That's not going to be a winning strategy.

Now maybe Burke is just an incredibly poor communicator, but what I'm hearing is that second thing, that they want to play a specific STYLE of hockey, not just to have a bigger team in general. Those are very different things.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

And yet despite the fact that previous versions of Detroit and Chicago weren't black and blue teams we remain smaller, weaker and softer overall than either of them. That isn't a winning formula.

He's not asking Johnny Gaudreau to crush guys through the boards. Black and blue means the bottom 6 needs to be bigger, stronger and meaner. Our top 6 needs more size and strength mixed with skill. Our defense needs to be able to move some forwards from the front of the net and win board battles.

I fail to see the "nonsense" you refer to. In fact it seems all pretty clear and straightforward.

[djsFlames]

Gaudreau is going to have to start crushing bodies then.

Hey Burke, can you not say #### like this when we have the players that we have? They're not bruisers, most of them. You can't just pull an entire new team out of your behind. Now a speedy, cycle and possession team is something I can get behind and actually see.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

And yet despite the fact that previous versions of Detroit and Chicago weren't black and blue teams we remain smaller, weaker and softer overall than either of them. That isn't a winning formula.

Again, you're arguing against something that no one is saying.

Black and blue means the bottom 6 needs to be bigger, stronger and meaner. Our top 6 needs more size and strength mixed with skill. Our defense needs to be able to move some forwards from the front of the net and win board battles.

You're talking about the size and strength of players, but you seem to have missed the main point of my previous post.

I'm hearing Burke talk about a specific style of play. "A team that likes it rough". Bruins hockey, Kings hockey. That sort of thing.

Now I admit that I might be reading it wrong and you might be reading it right, but do you see how there's a difference between what we're talking about here?

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Itse

I'm hearing Burke talk about a specific style of play. "A team that likes it rough". Bruins hockey, Kings hockey. That sort of thing.

You do realize, that in those extreme examples not every player on those teams employs that style of play right?

I don't see what is so confusing about what he's saying. The Big Bad Bruins team and the Kings, Ducks, etc, all have skilled and smaller players that don't play a crash and bang style.

It's possible for the Flames to keep their current core, add bigger and grittier players and largely play a tougher game with those players, the bottom six and bottom pairing D.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

And yet despite the fact that previous versions of Detroit and Chicago weren't black and blue teams we remain smaller, weaker and softer than either of them.

Do we, though? Or is that your "I watched all 82+Preseason games of the Flames and have my internal perceptual bias guided by my emotions from a small sample of games against divisional opponents where

a) An individual who is no longer with the team (Kris Russell) was exploited
b) The strategies of a coach who is no longer with the team (Hartley) were poorly implemented
c) Goalies who are either no longer with the team (Hiller, Backstrom), had off-nights (Ramo), or were 24 years old (Ortio) did not play well, leading to a score that misrepresented the on-ice play.

Your discontent "Flames-fan-lens" causes you to ignore / brush aside that among players expected to be on this team next season:

We had a forward (Hathaway) average 3.6 hits a game in his short stint.
Another forward (Ferland) 24th in totals hits despite missing a chunk of the season, also looks to have top 6 potential
Another forward (Bouma) who's a season removed from being 7th in total hits to add to having as many even strength goals as Sidney Crosby.
Another forward (Colborne) who added 122 hits for good measure to go with a vast improvement in his possession stats the second half of the season (+1.7%, compare to -2.0% last season)and 8 deflection goals for being around the net.
Another 19 year old Forward (Bennett) who has all the makings of an Iginla / Benn type in-your-face captain.

But what you see under the tint of Flames fan bias? You see Monahan and 2014 Colborne and Gaudreau and then compare those players to Holmstrom and Bertuzzi.

Here what we know, aside from the 2007 Ducks / 2012 Kings / 2014 Kings:

Hits, per Hockey Reference
2008 Red Wings - 1413
2009 Red Wings - 1457
2010 Blackhawks - 1555
2011 Canucks - 1791
2013 Blackhawks (ProRated) - 1435
2014 Black Hawks - 1375
2015 Flames - 1804
2015 Black Hawks - 1357
2016 Flames - 1700
2016 Sharks - 1686

What's different is all those other teams had puck possession. Do you need players who are strong on pucks, can protect the puck, and generate offense? Sure. That can be anybody from a Datsyuk to a Gaudreau to a Kane to a Pavelski to a Thornton to a Sedin to a Getzlaf. Size is just one approach towards that, far from a prerequisite....And Jonathan Toews isn't especially big or physical or any of that. If he's anything he's fast and tenacious and always in the right spot...which are the traits that are actually missing from Monahan, not physicality. But we still have Bennett.

And Hossa is a big player but his speed and IQ has always been the primary source of his dominance, not physicality. The closest modern day player to Prime Hossa is Ondrej Palat who is neither big nor physical.

And Treliving hasn't brought in players who play "Black and Blue", either. Pribyl, Shore, Grant, Hamilton, Frolik ... these are guys who can protect the puck with their reach - but the emphasis is primarily on their skill, not their pugnacity, truculence, beligerence, and testosterone.

Treliving has a vision for this team that I'm sorry to say is not emulating the Ducks/Kings/Blues but simply playing a fundamentally sound possession game. This is a guy who brought in Raymond, Frolik, and speaks glowlingly about Backlund in particular. He seems to get it, but Burke is focused on the empty aesthetics of hitting hard and punching face. We don't need to play a Kings/Ducks/Blues style to compete with the Kings/Ducks/Blues. That's a fact.

[Poe969]

Draft Tkachuck or Dubois
Sign UFA's like Lucic, Perron, Brower, McGuin, Weise or guys like that.
Make trades for guys that fit the mould of the team more if possible. Identify what players can be moved out that have value and go after players like Hayes if possible.
There are a lot of ways the team can become more "black and blue" without changing the team too much. Bennett plays that style, a top line winger who plays that style would really change things for the first line but I think the bottom 2!lines have to be changed a lot. Is the Colborne-Backlund-Frolik line a third or second line now? Can colborne play a bigger game or does a change need to be made there?

There are tons of ways this team can improve without changing the core, I like what they're doing and the path they're taking.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

I honestly should have stopped reading after a 6'5 Colborne.

A 6'5 Colborne has never played black and blue hockey and none of the players you listed are impact players.

Hamilton is but he's softer than Colborne.

Fun fact Joe Colborne, who according to you never hits; finished 2nd on the Flames in hits. For a guy who knows nothing about black and blue hockey, he must have accidentally ran into a whole bunch of folks.

[Flames89]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

Fun fact Joe Colborne, who according to you never hits; finished 2nd on the Flames in hits. For a guy who knows nothing about black and blue hockey, he must have accidentally ran into a whole bunch of folks.

That, or it is sadly reflective of how easy life was for teams playing against the Flames
"Ohh no, Colborne is going to hit me"

[Geeoff]

I don't think this team is gonna be big and bruising as long as our best players are Gaudreau, Monahan and Brodie. I hope we don't do something rash and move them out.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Flames89

That, or it is sadly reflective of how easy life was for teams playing against the Flames
"Ohh no, Colborne is going to hit me"

I get that it's sad that he is 2nd on the team, but I think it illustrates both points. The team needs to be more physical and Colborne is not as soft as some like to pretend he is.

I could see the Flames making an offer to Dale Weise this summer. He could be a good fit on one of those checking lines.

6'2, 206, RH, Right Wing, 127 hits, 14 goals, 27 points.

[Bourque's Twin]

The Flames have 1 more year of being on the softer side of things. Players become less soft as they gain more experience. Bennett, Ferland, Colborne, Hamilton, Nakladal, Jokipakka, and Monahan should all be more physical this year than last. If the Flames draft Tkachuk, sign Lucic and replace guys like Stajan and Jooris with big black/blue players, then I think they will be tough enough.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by Geeoff

I don't think this team is gonna be big and bruising as long as our best players are Gaudreau, Monahan and Brodie. I hope we don't do something rash and move them out.

Clearly the organization believes the team can have skill and play a black and blue style of game...

(i.e. Ferland, Bouma, Engelland and Jokipakka are examples of players who definitely can play the physical style)

Ferland was not as physical last year as the previous playoffs. Was that the player or the team's system....

Flames need to add younger players who can skate and play physical (i.e .Garnet Hathaway into the depth positions).