Teachers work "really hard'.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

The 10 month school year was instituted long before any teacher's union existed and was at least partially designed to accommodate kids who lived (and worked) on farms.

Something like that, or because school houses were too hot in the summer a century ago. But the fact is the rest of the world has 4-6 week summer breaks.

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I don't think we can pin it on them.

The persistence of an archaic practice, in the face of evidence showing it's worse for education than the model adopted elsewhere in the world, requires some explanation. The fierce opposition of B.C. teachers a few years ago to shorter summer breaks gives us a pretty good clue why the eight week summer is so entrenched in Canada.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Tell that to all the people who post in these threads remarking that teachers have a uniquely difficult job.

It's sort of how we run education in North America. The rest of the world does not take an 8 week break from school in the summer, and students are typically in school many more days than North American students. And studies are clear that the 8-week break (and the low number of instructional days) is detrimental to the academic progress of students.

The Underworked American (student)

No doubt part of that is just a cultural expectation in North America about kids having the whole summer off. But it's naive to think the fact Canada and the USA have the strongest teachers' unions in the world doesn't play a part. It would be interesting to have a public debate on the merits of year-round schooling, or increasing the length of the school day. Of course, the stance of teachers unions ensure we wouldn't even get to square one.

Anyone who informs themselves about the hours teachers work and how they're compensated in the rest of the world, and persists in the belief that the way things are done in Canada are in the interests of anyone but the teachers, is delusional.

Not sure where that article gets its numbers from. According to OECD data Canadian students have some of the highest number of hours of instruction per year of any developed nation in the world:

http://www.oecd.org/education/skills...0%28eng%29.pdf

The idea that the Swedish school week is 60 hours is particularly ludicrous. Do they honestly expect people to believe that Swedish students are spending 12 hours a day at school? The required instructional hours in Sweden are about 750 hours a year (compared to about 925 in Canada) and they get more time off than most North American students. 10 weeks off in the summer, 3 weeks at Christmas, additional 1 week breaks in the fall, winter, and spring, and various single day holidays. My guess is they're including daycare time in countries that provide government funded care and shoehorning that into school time to try to make a point.

[HHW]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

But the fact is the rest of the world has 4-6 week summer breaks.

That does not necessarily equate to more instructional hours.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/81-604-...l/tbl1-eng.htm
http://www.centerforpubliceducation....the-US-compare (see links to hours of instruction by jurisdiction)

In many countries in Europe, for instance, students get five weeks of summer vacation, but also have both fall and sprink breaks of 1 and 2 weeks respectively.

I for one would love to have the school year changed to a modified year-round calendar. Not all teachers share this opinion, but a sizable group does. Many schools in Calgary in fact do operate on this model. Many others have attempted to change, but actually experienced stiff resistance from parents.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Tell that to all the people who post in these threads remarking that teachers have a uniquely difficult job.

Any teacher that tells you this likely has never worked another job in their life. I agree that some are very sheltered.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Something like that, or because school houses were too hot in the summer a century ago. But the fact is the rest of the world has 4-6 week summer breaks.

Not really. Most of Europe has similar length summer breaks to Canada (many southern European nations have longer ones). And a good chunk of of the ones that do have appreciably shorter summer breaks just make up for it with more breaks during the year. So a place like the UK might have a 6 week summer break, but they also a week off in the fall, 2 weeks at Christmas, a week in February, 2 weeks in March/April, and a week off in May. So that's 13 weeks of vacation in a year, which is really no different than most of Canada that has 10 weeks in the summer, 2 weeks at Christmas, and a week or two in the spring.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

The 10 month school year was instituted long before any teacher's union existed and was at least partially designed to accommodate kids who lived (and worked) on farms. I don't think we can pin it on them.

And I don't think the teacher's union is quite so powerful that they can stop us, society as a whole, from changing the school calendar. They may (or may not) be too powerful, but they don't control everything.

Anyway, is there any reason you can think of why we might not put children as young as five in school for 49 weeks a year? Any reason at all? Because if you can, it just might poke a hole in that "in the interests of anyone but the teachers" theory.

Because children need the time to be children.

Because children of that age don't need that much structure in their life.

Because all too often, they burn out later on.

It's the same with sports. When children are young, sports should be fun and a means to keep fit instead of being a couch potato. They have all the time in the world to decide if they want to pursue sports on a more serious level at which time, you can introduce more structure.

As far as in classroom days in a school year, that has changed dramatically from when I taught. At that time, students had to be in class for 190 to 200 days a year. Those were in class days...professional days were not counted in that number. As far as professional days, I had 3 per year and then Teacher's Convention.

Although my children are no longer in school, I still check on in school days, more recently in the Foothills School Division as that is where I used to live. Last year they had 179 in class school days and 13 professional days. That is a minimum of 11 fewer in class days from when I taught. I don't think that bodes well for our education system.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by HHW

In many countries in Europe, for instance, students get five weeks of summer vacation, but also have both fall and sprink breaks of 1 and 2 weeks respectively.

True. But the problem with the long summer breaks is loss of learning retention.

Originally Posted by redforever

As far as in classroom days in a school year, that has changed dramatically from when I taught. At that time, students had to be in class for 190 to 200 days a year. Those were in class days...professional days were not counted in that number. As far as professional days, I had 3 per year and then Teacher's Convention.

Although my children are no longer in school, I still check on in school days, more recently in the Foothills School Division as that is where I used to live. Last year they had 179 in class school days and 13 professional days. That is a minimum of 11 fewer in class days from when I taught. I don't think that bodes well for our education system.

I'm curious how many professional days teachers in Sweden and New Zealand have. As redforever commented, Alberta teachers already have far more than they did 20-30 years ago. It's a rare thing for a kid today to have back-to-back 5 day weeks. When I was a kid in Calgary, we had one short day - Wednesday - when school closed at 2:20. Now, my kids school closes at noon every Friday. All done, no doubt, in the interests of students.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I'm curious how many professional days teachers in Sweden and New Zealand have. As redforever commented, Alberta teachers already have far more than they did 20-30 years ago. It's a rare thing for a kid today to have back-to-back 5 day weeks. When I was a kid in Calgary, we had one short day - Wednesday - when school closed at 2:20. Now, my kids school closes at noon every Friday. All done, no doubt, in the interests of students.

I really wonder why teachers require that many professional days today? I came out of university with a double major in Math and a minor in Physics and then went into a 2 year program to get my B Ed...and I thought I was more than qualified to teach.

Teachers today are coming out of university more and more educated with even more of a focus on child psychology than I ever had...and yet there seems to be more and more demand for professional training.

I had the same rebranding of the curriculum as today and I taught through the LSD era so there were enough drug problems as well. Yes, my class sizes were somewhat smaller but the first year I taught, I had 36 in my Grade 7 homeroom.

Just because society changes and grows should not require 10 more professional days from when I was teaching. What other industry or business gives that many professional days a year?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by redforever

As far as in classroom days in a school year, that has changed dramatically from when I taught. At that time, students had to be in class for 190 to 200 days a year. Those were in class days...professional days were not counted in that number. As far as professional days, I had 3 per year and then Teacher's Convention.

Although my children are no longer in school, I still check on in school days, more recently in the Foothills School Division as that is where I used to live. Last year they had 179 in class school days and 13 professional days. That is a minimum of 11 fewer in class days from when I taught. I don't think that bodes well for our education system.

See, this is interesting too. I'd say my kid gets a minimum of 1 long weekend per month in addition to holidays and whatever else.

I mean, whats today? Happy Random Monday in April Day?

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Locke

See, this is interesting too. I'd say my kid gets a minimum of 1 long weekend per month in addition to holidays and whatever else.

I mean, whats today? Happy Random Monday in April Day?

About 12-13 years ago I was sort of dating a gal who was active in the ATA. On Professional Days they had union meetings and other similar stuff. The other teachers did whatever they wanted. I assume she didn't make it up.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Locke

See, this is interesting too. I'd say my kid gets a minimum of 1 long weekend per month in addition to holidays and whatever else.

I mean, whats today? Happy Random Monday in April Day?

This is the end of a random 4 day weekend for my kids. Pretty good deal for me as I was able to work from home, but this is the kind of thing that wreaks havoc for a lot of parents.

[Locke]

I guess its just that, they work hard, sure, but only for 179 days.

[Ashartus]

Originally Posted by Locke

See, this is interesting too. I'd say my kid gets a minimum of 1 long weekend per month in addition to holidays and whatever else.

I mean, whats today? Happy Random Monday in April Day?

What I've heard is it relates to teacher work hours vs. budget. Professional days count towards the days a teacher has to work each year. The school boards don't have to pay all the support staff on professional days though, so they save a huge amount of money each time they have one. So they have been reducing instructional days to barely meet the minimum hours by increasing the number of professional days. Apparently the public board hit the minimum hours a few years ago, and the Catholic board got there this year.

As far as what they do - when my wife has one it usually seems to be half a day of external workshops and half a day at her school for planning meetings, team building exercises, etc. depending on the principal.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Ashartus

What I've heard is it relates to teacher work hours vs. budget. Professional days count towards the days a teacher has to work each year. The school boards don't have to pay all the support staff on professional days though, so they save a huge amount of money each time they have one. So they have been reducing instructional days to barely meet the minimum hours by increasing the number of professional days. Apparently the public board hit the minimum hours a few years ago, and the Catholic board got there this year.

As far as what they do - when my wife has one it usually seems to be half a day of external workshops and half a day at her school for planning meetings, team building exercises, etc. depending on the principal.

If I'm taking your word for it do you realize how insane that sounds? They dont have the budget? They've got the second highest budget in the Province, second only to AHS.

When do they realize that they are paying support staff and administration too much?

"We dont have any more money, get the kids out of school by adding some PD days."

Heaven forbid we trim some administrative fat though right? Because then our children will be morons by spending more time in school.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

About 12-13 years ago I was sort of dating a gal who was active in the ATA. On Professional Days they had union meetings and other similar stuff. The other teachers did whatever they wanted. I assume she didn't make it up.

Not sure if she made it up, or things have changed in the last 13 years, but that isn't the case. Seminars on teaching instruction, collaboration on teaching plans, etc. They put in a full day and it certainly isn't a day off for them.

I think Slava's comment is telling on this discussion. Are people pissed because we think teachers are overpaid/over vacationed, or is it aggravation because they aren't available 5 days a week for pseudo- daycare? These are two very separate issues.

[kootenayguy9]

Originally Posted by Ashartus

What I've heard is it relates to teacher work hours vs. budget. Professional days count towards the days a teacher has to work each year. The school boards don't have to pay all the support staff on professional days though, so they save a huge amount of money each time they have one. So they have been reducing instructional days to barely meet the minimum hours by increasing the number of professional days. Apparently the public board hit the minimum hours a few years ago, and the Catholic board got there this year.

As far as what they do - when my wife has one it usually seems to be half a day of external workshops and half a day at her school for planning meetings, team building exercises, etc. depending on the principal.

One of the reasons there are so many professional days is due to transportation costs. (No bus drivers) Have you noticed how much longer the average school day is in Alberta compared to a school in BC . All high school students (Grades 10-12) must have access to 1000 hours of instruction per school year vs 942 for high school students in BC. The high school I teach at had to increase the length of the day due to the fact we have 10 professional days per year instead of 3 like we used to have.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Believing teachers are already fairly compensated or perhaps overcompensated does not mean you dislike teachers. That should be obvious.

I think this needs to be re-iterated.

I think teachers are great. But imo they are extremely overcompensated, especially in Alberta. It's a difficult job, but that's why they can make 100k after 10 years with room to grow in administration. They are compensated for the difficulty of their job.

I think a salary freeze or even a 5% paycut, but with additional budget to hire more teachers would make the most sense. But I doubt that's what the ATA is looking for.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

Not sure if she made it up, or things have changed in the last 13 years, but that isn't the case. Seminars on teaching instruction, collaboration on teaching plans, etc. They put in a full day and it certainly isn't a day off for them.

I think Slava's comment is telling on this discussion. Are people pissed because we think teachers are overpaid/over vacationed, or is it aggravation because they aren't available 5 days a week for pseudo- daycare? These are two very separate issues.

Hold on though, it's not "pseudo-daycare". I find it weird that we expect such short learning times for our kids. If the kids were in school more hours they could take a more varied approach to the curriculum. More hands-on activity, more doing and less just sitting there listening in general. For some reason though it's become a rarity that kids attend the full 4.5 days a week (and by full I mean from 8:30-3:15 with a break for lunch and recess). Is there evidence that we are teaching students so effective that they need less class time? That seems to be at odds with intuition.

[Fuzz]

what do you mean 4.5 days a week? Do they have a half day every week or something? Maybe my memory is foggy, but I remember going to school 5 days a week...

[Slava]

Every Friday is a half day. Unless its a straight day off...

[Fuzz]

Jeez, I heard my dad complaining about kids and teachers having all this time off these days(he has step daughters that just finished school, so he was re-exposed) and I thought he was just being a grumpy old man...