CalgaryNEXT Discussion pt. 2

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Cool. So now all you need for that to be relevant is to get Ken King to step into his time machine so that he can go back in time and propose CalgaryNext 6 years ago so that we can compare these two plans. One of which has zero public information.

Or you could just acknowledge that there is no other actual plan to hold it up against and by extension it's not disingenuous at all.

So you call yourself right, and now you need me to acknowledge something. Things must be interesting in your world to hold so much power.

I said it was disingenuous and you disagreed and that's totally fine. Why you need me to admit that I agree with you is beyond me.

The city can't leave a contaminated area sitting there for x number of years given the damage to basements from the flood. Something has to be done. That something will cost money. That amount of money should be compared to the Calgary Next project.

Then if the Calgary Next project is too expensive you drop it. And I'm fine with that.

But to pretend this is a do this whole thing versus nothing proposition is spin.

[Tinordi]

You have to make a pretty long leap to say that if CalgaryNEXT isn't built something else will be during the same time frame and scale. I haven't seen any other serious proposals to redevelop the west village currently.

Further, just because the costs may be a wash between this project and some other hypothetical project does not mean the costs are not real and should not be considered as part of THIS project.

If it were another project we'd be going through a similar level of scrutiny to evaluate whether it was worth it. Redeveloping the WV is not an inevitability, it will be subject to the democratic process and the discussion of where scarce public dollars should be spent.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by NiklasSundblad

There's a reason the city is sitting on that land though, because right now there is no money to fix it, The East Village was given priority. As you alluded to, the area needs a comprehensive plan, roads need to be built, moved and fixed. The Flames want to build there now, then that stuff has to be paid for right now. There's nothing disingenuous about the city's stance, maybe too blunt for your liking, but honestly... Do you want a city government that plays fast and loose with your tax money?

Look I thought the Flames were disingenuous with their proposal as well. It was all spin. You can't have the Calgary buildings the oldest but bump others to new because they were renovated, ignoring that the Dome was face lifted as well.

So it's not blunt. It's spin.

They know they have to do something, they know that will cost something. If they can't do it now then say that's an issue, but don't tag the entire cost of the region to the biggest tenant and suggest they were only half right in how much it would cost.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Cube Inmate

I know this wasn't your point, but you made me think... the North Hill Mall site would be a far better location for this megaplex, and could probably be purchased and torn down (except the condos) for less than the costs of even remediating creosote issues in WV. There sure would be a lot of whining from the condo owners, but surely their property values would increase being next to such a "transformative" development, right?

The residents of Hounsfield Heights would kill that idea so fast. A stadium/hockey arena can not be near a residential area. It just doesn't work. The residents won't put up with the increased traffic and people in their neighborhood.

That is why WV works well because it has a decent buffer to residential.

[Rhettzky]

Originally Posted by NiklasSundblad

They have no legal recourse to do so. Domtar didn't actually break any laws. The city should go after the province, if that's the case.

Why would there be no legal recourse to? Earlier in this thread there was discussion about Canada's strict environmental clean-up laws placing the bulk of the blame on the perpetrator.

Also, I believe the correct course of action wouldn't be going after the province. It would be to have the site flagged as a contaminated site under the Federal governments Contaminated Action Plan and securing funds to help with the remediation. But also think that they need to pursue all options for remediation, including against the original polluter(s). But scratch my head as to why it's been left sitting like that for so many years without any action on the City's part beyond containment.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

You have to make a pretty long leap to say that if CalgaryNEXT isn't built something else will be during the same time frame and scale. I haven't seen any other serious proposals to redevelop the west village currently.

That's kind of a Captain Obvious post there. If the Flames can't get the cleanup kick started for a megaproject are you really expecting condo developers lining up to hedge their bets on development projects on land that will cost millions to clean with no timetable and a city hall not keen on spending the money to do it?

[Rhettzky]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Further, just because the costs may be a wash between this project and some other hypothetical project does not mean the costs are not real and should not be considered as part of THIS project.

If it were another project we'd be going through a similar level of scrutiny to evaluate whether it was worth it. Redeveloping the WV is not an inevitability, it will be subject to the democratic process and the discussion of where scarce public dollars should be spent.

Would we? Did you include the entire costs of the east village remediation and infrastructure upgrades when you look at the costs of the new central library or music center?

[Rhettzky]

My last two posts make it look like I'm a big proponent of CalgaryNEXT but that's not the case. I only believe that both sides are playing the game right now. It's kind of like the Giordano negotiation where a lot of posters were throwing Giordano under the bus for his initial ask of 9mil. But that's how these things typically go in a negotiation. Best to take emotion out of it.

In the end they might never be able to bridge the gap in such a complicated development area and we might just get a state of the art rink close to railtown. Then maybe they can figure out a way to build a combined fieldhouse/football field close to McMahon and realize some savings by just combining those two instead of all three.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Rhettzky

My last two posts make it look like I'm a big proponent of CalgaryNEXT but that's not the case. I only believe that both sides are playing the game right now. It's kind of like the Giordano negotiation where a lot of posters were throwing Giordano under the bus for his initial ask of 9mil. But that's how these things typically go in a negotiation. Best to take emotion out of it.

In the end they might never be able to bridge the gap in such a complicated development area and we might just get a state of the art rink close to railtown. Then maybe they can figure out a way to build a combined fieldhouse/football field close to McMahon and realize some savings by just combining those two instead of all three.

This is me as well.

I think the city and the teams need new buildings.
I think the West Village needs a big anchor tenant to get past the clean up issue.
I think the stadium/arena plan could be that tenant if both sides can get down to it.
I think both sides have been silly in spinning their side to this point.
I find both sides pretty insulting to any one but a tabloid loving Calgarian.

If the city has reasons that the CalgaryNext project is worse than other ideas/projects then table those issues. As I think they need to do something relatively soon in that area. Their 2010 link and the fact that Urquhart said they approached the East Village team to get ready to plan the West suggests they don't plan on doing nothing for 10 years.

But don't insult my intelligence by suggesting the Flames were only 50% right on their project costs.

[Senator Clay Davis]

The city should clean up the land and then sell it to the highest bidder. If that's the Flames, great. If it happens to be some condo developer, also great.

[Kavvy]

Originally Posted by Bingo

This is me as well.

I think the city and the teams need new buildings.
I think the West Village needs a big anchor tenant to get past the clean up issue.
I think the stadium/arena plan could be that tenant if both sides can get down to it.

So you missed my other post just one page back when I quoted you, so I will try again, but why does the WV need a big anchor who will get all the CRL monies instead of developing the area?

This is PRIME real estate once the contamination is cleaned up.

If the Flames aren't paying for the clean up, we have no advantage of giving them this prime real estate as once a government pays for the clean up, the land is prime for anyone.

Then the CRL and the fact you are leeching money from the development of the WV buy building an arena:

Originally Posted by Kavvy

Yes but if the WV is developed like the EV, the CRL will be used to support the community, infrastructure upgrades and even potential contamination clean up. Even if the CRL can't cover these costs, it will offset them.

If the WV is developed for CalgaryNEXT, the CRL goes to an arena, and all the other problems still exist, with less land to apply to CRL to as there is an arena taking up a massive chunk of the zone.

Developing the WV like the EV is a good plan and much more cost efficient for tax payers then building an arena.

CalgaryNEXT in the WV is silly.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by Kavvy

So you missed my other post just one page back when I quoted you, so I will try again, but why does the WV need a big anchor who will get all the CRL monies instead of developing the area?

This is PRIME real estate once the contamination is cleaned up.

If the Flames aren't paying for the clean up, we have no advantage of giving them this prime real estate as once a government pays for the clean up, the land is prime for anyone.

Then the CRL and the fact you are leeching money from the development of the WV buy building an arena:

I think this is all quite true, but I think the pitch from KK would be that the CalgaryNext would be the instigator to actually get going on this, transforming a blighted area into something better. I get that not everyone see this as a great use of space, but I think it is at least a reasonable point of view. The other possible benefit (which frankly I haven't seen confirmed, but wonder about), is that if remediation requires digging out a large chunk of soil, then a big stadium project might see some cost savings, as that type of project would require that sort of excavation in the first place. Purely speculative on my part, but I think that is a possibility.

[tvp2003]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

The residents of Hounsfield Heights would kill that idea so fast. A stadium/hockey arena can not be near a residential area. It just doesn't work. The residents won't put up with the increased traffic and people in their neighborhood.

That is why WV works well because it has a decent buffer to residential.

I've always liked the old Firepark site (North of the Barlow/MaxBell LRT). Access to major roads (Deerfoot/Memorial), and of course, the LRT.

Of course the "needs to be beside downtown for the corporate crowd" people will tell you its the worst idea in the world (even though its a <10 minute drive away). I also understand the land is privately owned, so there would be an acquisition cost as well...

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think the West Village needs a big anchor tenant to get past the clean up issue.
I think the stadium/arena plan could be that tenant if both sides can get down to it.

As a city owned piece of infrastructure the "tenant" in this case wouldn't be paying any "rent" in the district i.e. property taxes. I'm not sure a big anchor tenant that gets to live there rent free helps get past the clean up issue.

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

If the Flames can't get the cleanup kick started for a megaproject are you really expecting condo developers lining up to hedge their bets on development projects on land that will cost millions to clean with no timetable and a city hall not keen on spending the money to do it?

There would be significant differences between the project that is CalgaryNext as we know it and a condo development. Most significantly I don't imagine that condo developers will propose it as city owned condos. Meaning that the city would be selling the lots that under CS&E would remain under city ownership and would then henceforth be property tax paying assets.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Kavvy

So you missed my other post just one page back when I quoted you, so I will try again, but why does the WV need a big anchor who will get all the CRL monies instead of developing the area?

This is PRIME real estate once the contamination is cleaned up.

If the Flames aren't paying for the clean up, we have no advantage of giving them this prime real estate as once a government pays for the clean up, the land is prime for anyone.

Then the CRL and the fact you are leeching money from the development of the WV buy building an arena:

First off I've never said they should be given the land, though I think "leeching" is a pretty strong term that suggests a pretty polar view of the whole thing.

I think the Flames ownership group deserves a little more respect than that given their history in Calgary.

To be honest I think the fact that the city could counter with the Flames paying for part of the clean up is what makes an anchor tenant a good solution to the whole thing.

You won't get that out of a developer who wants to build two condos as the start to the redevelopment.

But sure if the city wants to foot the whole bill for clean up with our tax dollars and then start the development from square one they have every right if that's what they think is best.

[Kavvy]

Originally Posted by Bingo

First off I've never said they should be given the land, though I think "leeching" is a pretty strong term that suggests a pretty polar view of the whole thing.

I think the Flames ownership group deserves a little more respect than that given their history in Calgary.

To be honest I think the fact that the city could counter with the Flames paying for part of the clean up is what makes an anchor tenant a good solution to the whole thing.

You won't get that out of a developer who wants to build two condos as the start to the redevelopment.

But sure if the city wants to foot the whole bill for clean up with our tax dollars and then start the development from square one they have every right if that's what they think is best.

How is leeching a polar view? You keep ignoring my main point.

EV is doing well as the CRL is going towards development of the community.
WV can't succeed with the CRL going to an arena taking up a huge part of land meant for the CRL.

The arena is leeching the CRL from the community when compared to the EV model.

As for "given land" they want free land by renting and not owning. Not sure of lease rules, but guessing it won't be a lease which is considered beneficial to the city.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

The obvious solution is to get the crazy SW BRT people to campaign the city and the Flames to get this done on the Stampede grounds (I think this is the preferred location for most of us). With their influence and power this thing will be open before the new hockey arena in Edmonton or the new football stadium in Regina and be twice as nice.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Kavvy

As for "given land" they want free land by renting and not owning. Not sure of lease rules, but guessing it won't be a lease which is considered beneficial to the city.

Sorry not trying to ignore you

I'm certainly not going to try and school you on CRLs certainly not my area. If that's the case then for sure it has to be measured. If the arena creates more high end development and higher tax collection then it could go the other way. Certainly not going to profess to be the expert on that.

The other part though ... I wouldn't get hung up on "they want" from an opening proposal to get the ball rolling. The city has an opportunity here to counter which to me is smarter than suggesting the CSEC was wrong by double on costs and then mothballing the whole thing.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Bingo

The city has an opportunity here to counter.

Why would the city "counter"? The city doesn't want to build a stadium/arena megacomplex... the Flames do. It's up to the Flames to present a plan that the city deems worthy of investing public dollars.

[cam_wmh]

I agree with Bingo's and most other's points on this page.

I'm not going to profess I'm an expert on this either, but do contest the need for a large tenant to initiate the clean-up.

I think the City's next step there, regardless of who occupies, is petitioning the Provincial & Federal governments for capital assistance with remediation. I get that they may be playing that hand close to chest, so as to first identify what monies private business would put up.

I think now is an ideal time for those bigger bodies to step in and assist. Liberals & NDP, assist a city that has generally been a minefield to their parties, and with the downturn, this can create job stimulus.