Alberta Politics Thread

[Canehdianman]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

On average we're spending about 30% more then BC per person for health care and have worse wait times and delivery then that province by a far bit. And you can't tell me that our cost of living is that much higher then BC.

And this is the same old tired NDP argument that oh no we're going to machine gun teachers and doctors and nurses in the ditch

the whole salary structure of the Public Service is out of wack, We have a pension plan that's not sustainable, they're overstaffed in terms of managers, and inside not front line workers.

Because of this we're borrowing money for the day to day operations of the government including writing paychecks and that's just ludicrous, and on top of that the government announces that they're hiring another 250 bureaucrats for god knows what or why.

We're clearly not getting good value for our tax dollars here, and now we're overspending to a stupid level, and yes the PC's put us on the road, but that doesn't mean that the NDP should be excused for taking the wheel, gearing up and driving towards that cliff.

Its easy to say raise taxes to pay for these services, which is just stupid and lazy, and frankly makes this province less attractive to do business in and attract people to, it also makes it harder for people to live not only day to day but actually save for retirement.

Its not an unlimited wallet or pocket.

Its stupid and irresponsible to just keep piling on taxes and robbing peter to pay Paul, especially when there is a real and significant problem with the value that we're getting for what we're paying for.

I'm not an NDPer, not by a long stretch. I'm just pointing out there is a perfectly reasonable explanation for why we spend more per capita.

I just grabbed the first results I found about salary comparisons - it is from December 2014 I think, but still accurate I imagine:

Newfoundland and Labrador – $52,572
New Brunswick – $44,044
Nova Scotia – $42,992
Prince Edward Island – $41,184
Quebec – $44,621
Ontario – $49,088
Manitoba – $45,760
Saskatchewan -$51,792
Alberta – $60,476
British Columbia – $46,900

Weird. We seem to make 30% more than BC on average.

I get that Conservatives are frothing at the mouth at the recent tax increases (frankly, so am I, since every single one seems aimed directly at my wallet). But I don't think the NDP has much choice. People want services, services cost money. The NDP haven't magically done anything to make those services much more expensive yet.

Further, I'd rather taxes go up enough that we don't rely on royalties at all (and instead save them).

Originally Posted by Weitz

The % we pay more per person for health care =/= the % more our cost of living is.

I'm sure that's a great point, unfortunately, it doesn't refute anything I wrote (that you quoted) since I was talking about salaries not cost of living.

Reality is that we make a lot more than most other Provinces per capita, that goes for engineers at O&G companies as well as nurses in hospitals.

[Erick Estrada]

Like the great Patrick Ewing once said "We make a lot of money, but we spend a lot too.".

[peter12]

Because parts of B.C. are more dirt poor than West Virginia.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by peter12

Because parts of B.C. are more dirt poor than West Virginia.

It's more because Vancouver is filled with low income earners despite a massive increase in cost of living

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by peter12

Because parts of B.C. are more dirt poor than West Virginia.

Even the 'rich' or 'middle class' areas are only so because of real estate appreciation and not income from employment. It's the only place that has a negative savings rate. BC is actually a terrible place to make money outside of real estate speculation.

[CaptainCrunch]

It'd be interesting to see what the cost of living index is, I find it funny that both provinces that are high on the salary scale are oil producers as well.

You can't argue that we want services and are willing to pay more when we have services that are ranked very low in terms of the rest of the country.

So basically we are spending more to get less, and that is a failure to properly use tax payer dollars.

The simple salary argument also doesn't respond to the point that BC taxpayers pay about 30% less per person for better delivery of services and they don't seem to have a front line retention issue.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

It's more because Vancouver is filled with low income earners despite a massive increase in cost of living

I believe median income in Vancouver is around 70k. Not low income by any measure.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by peter12

I believe median income in Vancouver is around 70k. Not low income by any measure.

I think you're comparing apples and oranges. You're quoting family income. By that measure Calgary is well over $100,000. Vancouver's one of the lowest in any metropolitan area in Canada

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

I think you're comparing apples and oranges. You're quoting family income. By that measure Calgary is well over $100,000. Vancouver's one of the lowest in any metropolitan area in Canada

Sorry, I'm not really sure what your point is.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by peter12

Sorry, I'm not really sure what your point is.

You quoted a family income (two earners) to refute my point when we were discussing individual median income. If we are comparing apples to apples you're wrong

[GP_Matt]

Originally Posted by Ironhorse

No they weren't. They took any name on a riding nomination that they could get (cooks, yoga instructors anyone?). The candidate in our riding was totally invisible. They just became the convenient beneficiaries of a split right, protest vote gone horribly wrong. Too bad they can't see it that way.

I think you underestimate how organized they had to be to even pull that off.

The NDP had riding associations in every riding and a base of supporters in each riding to help out. The Alberta party couldn't win because they couldn't even find one person in each riding to setup the riding association that is needed to select a candidate.

The NDP also typically picked people from local ridings to run. The Liberals on the other hand went to the University chapter and had people volunteer to put their name on the ballot for cities that they had never visited and did not visit during the campaign.

I don't like their policies that much but you can't deny that they were one of only three parties with riding level support leading up to the election. The Wildrose didn't look like they could win and I did not want the PCs to win so the only other choice was to vote NDP.

[stampsx2]

Originally Posted by Canehdianman

Do you expect a nurse here to work for the same as what a nurse makes in Nfld? The above average salaries from Alberta's resource wealth raise all salaries.

ummmm absolutely. Why should a nurse make more in alberta than in Nfld? They both care for people. You bring up a very good point, health and education wages should be standardized across the country.

If you disagree because of oil and average salaries in Alberta then why does the public sector not have to take a cut when average salaries drop across the province?

[Canehdianman]

Let me know how your salary cut discussion goes with your boss.

[username]

Originally Posted by Canehdianman

Let me know how your salary cut discussion goes with your boss.

What does that have to do with anything?

In the real world, ie private industry, when revenues go down then staffing costs must decrease. Why should the public sector be exempt?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Canehdianman

Let me know how your salary cut discussion goes with your boss.

Bad statement by you or I misunderstood the point your getting at.

Basically I was just like a lot of other people told you can take the cut and keep working and making some money, or you can be laid off.

Its happened enmasse in this province in the private sector.

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by username

Why should the public sector be exempt?

Because they "work really hard" or "you cannot possibly reduce spending at all without cutting front-line people". And won't somebody "think of the children or old people".

[crazy_eoj]

Originally Posted by Canehdianman

Let me know how your salary cut discussion goes with your boss.

If Oil and Gas Engineer faces salary cut, he could go to 100 other oil and gas companies. The market sets the salary expectations.

If Teacher faces salary cut, he can go to BC or SSK. The political groups sets the salary expectations.

Not the same.

[Canehdianman]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Bad statement by you or I misunderstood the point your getting at.

Basically I was just like a lot of other people told you can take the cut and keep working and making some money, or you can be laid off.

Its happened enmasse in this province in the private sector.

I was responding to stampsx2 who said that all salaries should be standardized.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

But to be honest, as much as Harper talked about shrinking the civil service and making it more affordable, he grew it pretty heavily.

That's because his base was among older and rural Canadians, who tend to be net beneficiaries of government spending.

[IliketoPuck]

No.

It is far simpler than that and is being made way too difficult.

If the cost of living is higher in Alberta, you need to pay higher wages to attract anyone to work in the Province. That goes for any job. Engineer, Teacher, Geophysicist, Lawyer, Bus Driver.

If you don't pay that higher wage to compensate for the higher cost of living, no one can rationally be expected to take an economic pay cut to work here.

Froth at the mouth all you want about standardizing wages. It simply demonstrates a naivete to some pretty basic financial concepts.

The reality is that Alberta costs more to live in than in most other jurisdictions in Canada, therefore, the wages to attract people to work here are higher. Simple.

If you want to make the argument that we are not efficiently delivering our services due to structural inefficiencies in our public sector, I'm all ears. But blaming it on higher wages when the cost of living in Alberta is far higher than average is an argument that will get no traction with actual decision makers (and rightfully so).