Alberta Politics Thread

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by the_only_turek_fan

I have a question for those that voted for the NDP. Do you regret your vote?

I am being serious here. I want to really get a gauge of what people think.

I didn't vote for them (I voted for the Liberal) but if I had, I wouldn't regret it. (that doesn't mean I'd do it again though)

People quickly forget that the Conservatives were both crooked and bad managers. The Premier was building herself a fancy place to live with tax dollars.

And we'd be in pretty much the same place no matter who's running the show. Just that now we have boobs instead of crooks doing it.

Although there have been a couple references to the NDP stealing copper pipes/wiring on their way out, which is something that I don't get. Is it just a generic reference to politicians looting the place on their way out?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by stampsx2

Really? How do you figure? We get taxed 30% on our income each pay cheque (20% or 30% federally then another 10% provincially). Then we get taxed another 5% gst with what income we have left and on property and carbon taxes. If you decide you want to save or invest that money you get taxed again. Basically we're paying around 40% tax.

Even if you're in the lowest income bracket you'll still pay 20% in taxes each year.

Tell me again how Alberta/Canada has low taxes?

Taxes in Alberta are lower than other provinces. And Canada has lower taxes than most other countries in the OECD. Whether you subjectively find them high or low isn't really relevant. In my experience, the people who complain loudest about taxes complain about taxes regardless of the rate. They're always too high.

At the time of the provincial election, if Alberta had adopted Saskatchewan's tax regime - the second lowest in the country - the budget deficit would have almost vanished.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by the_only_turek_fan

I have a question for those that voted for the NDP. Do you regret your vote?

I voted strategically to get rid of the Conservatives. There's no way I was voting for the Wildrose. The party that most closely aligns with my outlook is the Alberta Party, but my local candidate didn't really have a shot. So NDP it was.

So I wouldn't say I regret voting for the NDP. But I am disappointed. I had assumed that the NDP would have to govern from the centre. I really didn't think they would use their shot at governing to simply reward their base. I thought they would be more pragmatic and far-sighted. Since it's unlikely they'll get re-elected, I guess at this point it's just a matter of how badly they'll damage the finances of the province in their one and only term in office.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by Locke

Heres the thing: While we might enjoy among the least taxes in the country, and I'm not sure about that I'll have to check, the highest marginal tax rate in Alberta is still going to be 48.5%. For that to be the lowest its still pretty steep, especially in light of what we get in return which ranks among the lowest in the country by most metrics.

Further, the thing that upsets me is this: look at the current economy in Alberta. Companies are realizing that current revenues are down and revenue forecasts arent looking good. What is the end result? The natural reaction is to cut costs, the result of which is a lot of good people losing their jobs.

The Government though? It sees that revenues are down and rather than take any action to respond to that it simply plans to 'magic up' some more revenue.

Do you realize how stupid that is? On every level?

The Official Government Action Plan is to kick the economy while its down, mug its wallet and run while stifling all growth.

To a socialist though these aren't problems they are opportunities.

The economy exists to serve government. The job of taxes is to redistribute wealth. If you are only paying 48.5% you still have way too much.

Topp and Notley are playing the reverse Harper. His goal was to shrink government so he'd cut taxes, run a deficit, and use that as pressure to shrink government and cut spending. Topp and Notley are jacking spending, running deficits, and using that as pressure to hike taxes.

A shrinking economy and less private investment just gives them license to spend - allowing bigger government and higher deficits which creates more tax pressure in future.

[Ozy_Flame]

Didn't vote NDP, but not totally against their policies. It's the execution that bothers me. I do believe a carbon tax is a good idea in this province - we need to reign in our energy use in this province (as everywhere else in the modern world) but there has to be another way to measure it - perhaps on the sale of new vehicles, I have no idea. However, I guess the portion of tax on gasoline is pretty much a consumption tax, so technically you don't have to pay it if you don't consume. I'd like to see a move towards more efficient and smaller cars if possible. Not sure the PC's would have gone down this route if they had another four years.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Bend it like Bourgeois

To a socialist though these aren't problems they are opportunities.

The economy exists to serve government. The job of taxes is to redistribute wealth. If you are only paying 48.5% you still have way too much.

Topp and Notley are playing the reverse Harper. His goal was to shrink government so he'd cut taxes, run a deficit, and use that as pressure to shrink government and cut spending. Topp and Notley are jacking spending, running deficits, and using that as pressure to hike taxes.

A shrinking economy and less private investment just gives them license to spend - allowing bigger government and higher deficits which creates more tax pressure in future.

But to be honest, as much as Harper talked about shrinking the civil service and making it more affordable, he grew it pretty heavily.

I remember reading a book that talked about the American Government and they talked about the third rail of American politics which is social services. If you touch it you die.

In Canada it seems like the third rail of Canadian Politics is the public servants. If you touch it you get crushed by the unions and they put a ton of money into campaigning against you.

When Notley announced the hiring of another 250 bureaucrats in the budget, I knew that she realized that she couldn't turn on her base.

The only way to get cost control is to crush the Public Sector Unions, but that's never going to happen.

It doesn't help that a party like the NDP views Public Sector jobs as having more value then private sector jobs.

[GP_Matt]

Originally Posted by the_only_turek_fan

I have a question for those that voted for the NDP. Do you regret your vote?

I am being serious here. I want to really get a gauge of what people think.

I don't regret my vote. I really do think that it was unhealthy to have the same party in power for two generations.
There is hardly a civil servant in the Alberta government who wasn't hired under PC leadership.

The PC's pulled a snap election to try to capitalize on the disarray and the NDP was the only party with the organization and base of support ready to run a credible campaign.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Didn't vote NDP, but not totally against their policies. It's the execution that bothers me. I do believe a carbon tax is a good idea in this province - we need to reign in our energy use in this province (as everywhere else in the modern world) but there has to be another way to measure it - perhaps on the sale of new vehicles, I have no idea. However, I guess the portion of tax on gasoline is pretty much a consumption tax, so technically you don't have to pay it if you don't consume. I'd like to see a move towards more efficient and smaller cars if possible. Not sure the PC's would have gone down this route if they had another four years.

I really don't believe in the whole punish for using concept that things like the Carbon Tax do, I agree that there should be some consumption taxation.

However, I do believe that you have to encourage people to make the change.

Putting a carbon tax in that spikes the costs of everything from transportation costs to gas costs to heating costs, to whatever to me punishes the people that can least afford to pay it but have to use this energy.

Bottom line is its nice that there's a $200.00 rebate, but when we have figures that this strategy will increase costs for families by a thousand bucks or more a year is punishing the wrong class of people.

If you're going to use the carbon tax then fine, carbon tax it, put it in a separate pool of funds and find a way to rebate it completely back to the tax payers.

If create big enough incentives to buy a energy efficient car, or change your furnace or buy freeze dried foods so you don't need a fridge and stove then people will follow. It just makes economic sense.

If you tell people that if they start a renewable energy or technology company and its profitable over the first two years that you will get half of your business taxes rebated to you then fine, that could create a market place.

But within the next few years, probably all of the money garnered by this carbon tax will go towards interest payments or things like pensions.

It makes no sense and its a bad strategy and has as much to do with reducing carbon as me walking around with a pirate hat made out of newspaper on my head.

[crazy_eoj]

Originally Posted by clifffletcher

spending in alberta is much higher than other provinces. And canada has higher spending than most other countries in the oecd. Whether you subjectively find them high or low isn't really relevant. In my experience, the people who complain loudest about spending complain about services regardless of the amount. They're always not spending enough.

At the time of the provincial election, if alberta had adopted ontario's spending regime - the second highest in the country - the budget deficit would have almost vanished.

fyp

[stampsx2]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

In my experience, the people who complain loudest about taxes complain about taxes regardless of the rate.

and you're entitled to your opinion but in my opinion you're wrong.

[stampsx2]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Taxes in Alberta are lower than other provinces. And Canada has lower taxes than most other countries in the OECD. Whether you subjectively find them high or low isn't really relevant. In my experience, the people who complain loudest about taxes complain about taxes regardless of the rate. They're always too high.

At the time of the provincial election, if Alberta had adopted Saskatchewan's tax regime - the second lowest in the country - the budget deficit would have almost vanished.

So if I understand you correctly we're paying around 40% taxes on average per person and that's something we should be proud of? Should I be even more proud because our province and country can't balance the books at those rates? When does money squandering come into question?

[crazy_eoj]

Originally Posted by stampsx2

So if I understand you correctly we're paying around 40% taxes on average per person and that's something we should be proud of? Should I be even more proud because our province and country can't balance the books at those rates? When does money squandering come into question?

The problem with many of those on the left is that they strongly believe there is a direct linear relationship between spending and service outcomes. However, it's been conclusively proven that is not the case over and over again. Alberta is, and has been for decades, the highest spending province in Canada. Yet, our service outcomes are generally average or worse than that in many comparisons.

Cutting spending doesn't mean cutting services, and increasing spending doesn't mean improving services. If you send two people into the grocery store with $100 and one comes out with a weeks worth of supplies and the other comes back with prime rib and some chips for one night, the solution to equal their outcomes isn't to give the second guy more money....

[Ironhorse]

Originally Posted by GP_Matt

The PC's pulled a snap election to try to capitalize on the disarray and the NDP was the only party with the organization and base of support ready to run a credible campaign.

No they weren't. They took any name on a riding nomination that they could get (cooks, yoga instructors anyone?). The candidate in our riding was totally invisible. They just became the convenient beneficiaries of a split right, protest vote gone horribly wrong. Too bad they can't see it that way.

[polak]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

The problem with many of those on the left is that they strongly believe there is a direct linear relationship between spending and service outcomes. However, it's been conclusively proven that is not the case over and over again. Alberta is, and has been for decades, the highest spending province in Canada. Yet, our service outcomes are generally average or worse than that in many comparisons.

Ummmm.... This sounds like a direct result of having terrible government for 40 years that created a network of inefficiency because they thought they could simply throw money at everything.

[crazy_eoj]

Originally Posted by polak

Ummmm.... This sounds like a direct result of having terrible government for 40 years that created a network of inefficiency because they thought they could simply throw money at everything.

Agreed. Since early Klein days our spending has been outrageous and wasteful.

And yet, the NDP solution is:

Throw more money at everything. Raise taxes. Throw even more money at everything.

[Canehdianman]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

The problem with many of those on the left is that they strongly believe there is a direct linear relationship between spending and service outcomes. However, it's been conclusively proven that is not the case over and over again. Alberta is, and has been for decades, the highest spending province in Canada. Yet, our service outcomes are generally average or worse than that in many comparisons.

Cutting spending doesn't mean cutting services, and increasing spending doesn't mean improving services. If you send two people into the grocery store with $100 and one comes out with a weeks worth of supplies and the other comes back with prime rib and some chips for one night, the solution to equal their outcomes isn't to give the second guy more money....

I'm always amazed by people who are upset that our health care spending is higher than everywhere else.

Albertans earn, on average, more than any other province. Do you expect a nurse here to work for the same as what a nurse makes in Nfld? The above average salaries from Alberta's resource wealth raise all salaries.

Want to stop paying higher health care wages than everywhere else? Ask to have your salary standardized with the rest of Canada. Fiscal responsibility starts with you!

[polak]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

Agreed. Since early Klein days our spending has been outrageous and wasteful.

And yet, the NDP solution is:

Throw more money at everything. Raise taxes. Throw even more money at everything.

Agreed. We may disagree on taxation but I think everyone agrees that we need a party that can get spending on services under control.

[CaptainCrunch]

On average we're spending about 30% more then BC per person for health care and have worse wait times and delivery then that province by a far bit. And you can't tell me that our cost of living is that much higher then BC.

And this is the same old tired NDP argument that oh no we're going to machine gun teachers and doctors and nurses in the ditch

the whole salary structure of the Public Service is out of wack, We have a pension plan that's not sustainable, they're overstaffed in terms of managers, and inside not front line workers.

Because of this we're borrowing money for the day to day operations of the government including writing paychecks and that's just ludicrous, and on top of that the government announces that they're hiring another 250 bureaucrats for god knows what or why.

We're clearly not getting good value for our tax dollars here, and now we're overspending to a stupid level, and yes the PC's put us on the road, but that doesn't mean that the NDP should be excused for taking the wheel, gearing up and driving towards that cliff.

Its easy to say raise taxes to pay for these services, which is just stupid and lazy, and frankly makes this province less attractive to do business in and attract people to, it also makes it harder for people to live not only day to day but actually save for retirement.

Its not an unlimited wallet or pocket.

Its stupid and irresponsible to just keep piling on taxes and robbing peter to pay Paul, especially when there is a real and significant problem with the value that we're getting for what we're paying for.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Canehdianman

I'm always amazed by people who are upset that our health care spending is higher than everywhere else.

Albertans earn, on average, more than any other province. Do you expect a nurse here to work for the same as what a nurse makes in Nfld? The above average salaries from Alberta's resource wealth raise all salaries.

Want to stop paying higher health care wages than everywhere else? Ask to have your salary standardized with the rest of Canada. Fiscal responsibility starts with you!

The % we pay more per person for health care =/= the % more our cost of living is.

[crazy_eoj]

Originally Posted by Canehdianman

I'm always amazed by people who are upset that our health care spending is higher than everywhere else.

Albertans earn, on average, more than any other province. Do you expect a nurse here to work for the same as what a nurse makes in Nfld? The above average salaries from Alberta's resource wealth raise all salaries.

Want to stop paying higher health care wages than everywhere else? Ask to have your salary standardized with the rest of Canada. Fiscal responsibility starts with you!

I would expect public sector salaries to be competitive with our neighboring provinces, and perhaps similar to Ontario as an economic hub.

Of course, we have been spending significantly more than both SK and BC for decades, even forcing their public sectors to demand raises while pointing at AB and crying... but look what we could get paid in AB!!

Not to mention public employees enjoy wage premiums (10% more), retirement premiums (retire 2 years earlier), benefit premiums (both more pensions and way more defined benefit, not to mention the sick day fiasco), and higher job security (private worker 2.5X more likely to be fired) over their private competitors in AB.