Gaudreau, Monahan want to play together for the next 10 years

[oldschoolcalgary]

how many young potential elite forwards have the flames developed in the last 25 years anyways? Iggy?

anyone else?

it would be absolute madness to hope someone signs gaudreau and actually prefer we take the compensation instead of resigning JH...

crazy talk...

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Corral

A post that goes against the grain is not horrible, but rather enhances forum debate.

A post that goes against the grain can still be horrible.

Your view makes no sense at all, if I understood it correctly. You are saying that the Flames don't want to pay Gaudreau, because some people may or may not think that Hamilton is overpaid. That is some awkward analysis my friend.

[Vinny01]

Gaudreau is an elite player and superstar in the league. He is a player that has gotten better every year in every league he has been in.

As for Hamilton I don't know how anyone can argue he was not worth his contract this year. 6'5 right shot D at 22 scored 43pts. He got so much better over the second half so plenty of reason to believe he will have another career year next season.

[Corral]

No. What i am saying is the Flames want to pay Gaudreau at the lowest salary they can possibly get him to agree to. And what they offer him will almost certainly be less than he would get elsewhere ... Hence the early suggestion about an offer sheet when negotiations have dragged on ... which it turns out is not possible. But as everyone knows here the bridge contract actually gives the Flames even more leverage to low ball him. I mean what does he do - sit and pout? No way. The Flames know he will sign the bridge deal for less than market.

Iginla is a good example. He scored 50 goals and i think won the Art Ross trophy in 2002 and helped Canada win gold ... and the Flames sign him to a 2 year deal - at big money granted. Cheap cheap cheap ....

[saillias]

Why are we discussing ancient history here in regard to the Gaudreau contract?

What the Flames paid Phaneuf or Iginla in 2007 is not relevant. Please stop framing the discussion in this outdated and nonsensical way

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Corral

Iginla is a good example. He scored 50 goals and i think won the Art Ross trophy in 2002 and helped Canada win gold ... and the Flames sign him to a 2 year deal - at big money granted. Cheap cheap cheap ....

Well the financial situation in the league was completely different at that point, you seem to be ignoring that. We were actually on the verge of having to be moved in the early 2000's, do you remember that? Remember when sell outs were rare?

Sutter managed to re-sign Iginla, Regehr AND Kiprusoff despite most people thinking it would be impossible to retain all of them. Was that the Flames being cheap? I don't think so. They paid Iginla 7 million a decade or so ago, that's huge money for back then. Probably equivalent to 10+ million these days. So Gaudreau at 7.5? Not going to be a problem.

Your conclusions are questionable.

[Ashasx]

Why not pay him the big bucks now, during his prime years (the next 8 years), instead of bridging him and then paying him even more annually until he's 33?

The Flames want to sign Gaudreau for the lowest salary possible. That's a certainty. They just want the term to also be 8 years.

[Corral]

[QUOTE

As for Hamilton I don't know how anyone can argue he was not worth his contract this year. 6'5 right shot D at 22 scored 43pts. He got so much better over the second half so plenty of reason to believe he will have another career year next season.[/QUOTE]


I'll admit at the outset i'm not a Dougie fan ... but really ... the guy at -14 had almost the worst +/- on the team this year. You call that a career year for a top Dman?

[Ashasx]

you know an argument is good when +/- is the discussion point

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Corral

I'll admit at the outset i'm not a Dougie fan ... but really ... the guy at -14 had almost the worst +/- on the team this year. You call that a career year for a top Dman?

It was a career year in points, that's called an indisputable fact.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Corral

[QUOTE

As for Hamilton I don't know how anyone can argue he was not worth his contract this year. 6'5 right shot D at 22 scored 43pts. He got so much better over the second half so plenty of reason to believe he will have another career year next season.

I'll admit at the outset i'm not a Dougie fan ... but really ... the guy at -14 had almost the worst +/- on the team this year. You call that a career year for a top Dman?[/QUOTE]

Goals and points he was at career numbers. He got off to a very bad start which everyone knows about. Using +/- to claim he had a bad year is a weak argument. Dougie and Gio were really bad in October but ended the year on a scoring tear, playing much better defense and clearly had adjusted to the new system which is vastly different than the one he played in Boston.

You look around the league at Dmen under 23 who put up the points and have played in the situations Dougie has and you won't find many. The ones you will find were top draft picks still with their current team. The fact the Flames got him for a mid first and 2 mid round 2nds is a steal. The fact he signed under $6M for 6 years is also a steal

[GioforPM]

Someone tell TJ that, despite him getting more points in less games than any other year, it wasn't a career year (so far) because his =/- dropped from 15 to 4.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Corral

I'll admit at the outset i'm not a Dougie fan ... but really ... the guy at -14 had almost the worst +/- on the team this year. You call that a career year for a top Dman?

We call it a career year for a 22 year old.

Big difference, and the fact you're not comprehending that really speaks volumes.

If he'd put up those point totals and had a positive +/- number, we'd be talking about one of the top ten d-men in the league at 22 years old.

Context. It's important.

[Roof-Daddy]

Chris Pronger

-33 through his first 3 seasons in the NHL

His 3rd season, after being dealt to the Blues was his worst at -18 and was by the far the worst on that team too.

Plus/minus is like the last brittle straw in an argument that's being lost in embarrassing fashion.

[Corral]

Someone explain to me why +/- makes for a bad argument? Especially for a top pair Dman - and when his +/- is almost the worst on the entire roster.

[Corral]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Chris Pronger

-33 through his first 3 seasons in the NHL

His 3rd season, after being dealt to the Blues was his worst at -18 and was by the far the worst on that team too.

Plus/minus is like the last brittle straw in an argument that's being lost in embarrassing fashion.

My point then would be Chris Pronger shouldn't be getting paid top dollars on the team in those early years. Flames are overpaying Hamilton.

[devo22]

Ryan Suter was a team-worst -16 while scoring 45 points as a 23-year-old in 2008-09.
Erik Karlsson was -30 while scoring 50 points in 2010-11.
Shea Weber was -7 this year, the worst +/- among Preds defensemen.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Corral

Someone explain to me why +/- makes for a bad argument? Especially for a top pair Dman - and when his +/- is almost the worst on the entire roster.

a. It is the first year of a long term contract at relatively low money, for a player with an extremely high ceiling.

b. +/- is a weak stat that's influenced by situation, ice time, matchups and what the coach does with the player.

c. In his rookie season, Mario had 100 points and -35. You wouldn't sign him long term? In 93-94 Gretzky had 130 points but had a team worst -25. A couple years ago Ovie had 51 goals and a team worst -35.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Corral

My point then would be Chris Pronger shouldn't be getting paid top dollars on the team in those early years. Flames are overpaying Hamilton.

Since when is Hamilton getting paid "top dollars on the team"? Especially after Gaudreau and Monahan's new contracts get signed.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Hamilton's +/- was really effected by a handful of games to start the season, and a batch of three at the end. After his first nine games he was -11, he crawled himself out of that hole throughout the year and was fairly sold. At the end of the year he had a brutal stretch where he was -6 in four games. Those three games buried what was a great recovery.

Suppose I could be accused of cherry picking stats here but beyond a few stretches he was very good, especially when you find out he's 22.

Nothing about Dougie Hamilton worries me.