GT: Federal Election

[Senator Clay Davis]

A left-wing group should probably avoid using the word manifesto ever, if possible. Some self-awareness should be in order.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Locke

Yeah man, 'connotations' was the perfect term. It very certainly does have partisan connotations.

By the strict letter of the definition you're right but in practical political terms its certainly a term that most prudent politicians would actively attempt to avoid.

Which partisan side? As far as I can tell, it's been used for everything from Communism to anti-government Libertarianism to feminism to corporate mission statements.

If, when you hear 'manifesto', all you hear is "communist manifesto" I think it says more about that person than anyone else. It's just a word.

I haven't read the Leap Manifesto, I can guess well enough what it entails just from the responses in here. I'm not sure the reactions would be different if it was the Leap Plan or the Leap Mission Statement.

[nik-]

The word used doesn't make the plan any worse. It's a bad plan regardless, it's just also a poor choice of word to use because of modern connotations.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Which partisan side? As far as I can tell, it's been used for everything from Communism to anti-government Libertarianism to feminism to corporate mission statements.

If, when you hear 'manifesto', all you hear is "communist manifesto" I think it says more about that person than anyone else. It's just a word.

I haven't read the Leap Manifesto, I can guess well enough what it entails just from the responses in here. I'm not sure the reactions would be different if it was the Leap Plan or the Leap Mission Statement.

Again, when it comes to official policy the name always means something.

Do you honestly believe they werent trying to get a reaction by labeling it a 'Manifesto?'

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Locke

Again, when it comes to official policy the name always means something.

Do you honestly believe they werent trying to get a reaction by labeling it a 'Manifesto?'

Well if they were actively trying to make a connection to the Communist Manifesto by using the same word, I would say that it's stupider than the actual content of the piece.

I agree that it's dumb. I just think it's dumb that it's now this faux pas word to use. It's just a word. We could have the Trump Manifesto tomorrow and it would be filled with the exact opposite language.

Like German's will never use the word Mein again.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Well if they were actively trying to make a connection to the Communist Manifesto by using the same word, I would say that it's stupider than the actual content of the piece.

I agree that it's dumb. I just think it's dumb that it's now this faux pas word to use. It's just a word. We could have the Trump Manifesto tomorrow and it would be filled with the exact opposite language.

Like German's will never use the word Mein again.

It's not just the Communist Manifesto, when was the last time there was a positive document released as a manifesto?

It's usually the domain of spree shooters and mail bombers more so than communists these days. However, I don't think you're naive enough to think that they chose that word because its literal definition worked. They chose it because it's a radical opinion.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Well if they were actively trying to make a connection to the Communist Manifesto by using the same word, I would say that it's stupider than the actual content of the piece.

I agree that it's dumb. I just think it's dumb that it's now this faux pas word to use. It's just a word. We could have the Trump Manifesto tomorrow and it would be filled with the exact opposite language.

Like German's will never use the word Mein again.

Well 'mein' in German means 'My' so...not exactly the same thing. (Mein Kampf = My Struggle)

Its a faux-pas word to use from a Socialist party that wants you to think that they arent. Its actually remarkably stupid because the one thing most Socialist groups want is to be actively distanced from outright Communism.

Socialism = Okay
Communism = Siberian Gulags

Big gap.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Well if they were actively trying to make a connection to the Communist Manifesto by using the same word, I would say that it's stupider than the actual content of the piece.

I agree that it's dumb. I just think it's dumb that it's now this faux pas word to use. It's just a word. We could have the Trump Manifesto tomorrow and it would be filled with the exact opposite language.

Like German's will never use the word Mein again.

All I can say is that words matter. There is a pretty good reason that the NDP won't be renaming itself as the 'Nationalist Socialist' Party anytime soon, even if the underlying words are fitting for their values!

[Resolute 14]

No, Matty, the word itself isn't partisan. But you should take note that your own examples of the usage of "manifesto" are all groups that occupy rather extreme viewpoints.

So while the word itself may not be partisan, it very much is loaded. And the Leap Manifesto is very much the same - in this case, radical socialism.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Locke

Well 'mein' in German means 'My' so...not exactly the same thing. (Mein Kampf = My Struggle)

Its a faux-pas word to use from a Socialist party that wants you to think that they arent. Its actually remarkably stupid because the one thing most Socialist groups want is to be actively distanced from outright Communism.

Socialism = Okay
Communism = Siberian Gulags

Big gap.

I know what Mein Kampf means, that's my point. They dont just stop using those words in things.

The whole second part kind of what I'm getting at. I agree it's not smart to use given the landscape of everything, but there seems to be a lot of people solely concerned with the name without even reading it. You can hate every single letter of it, but you should read it before you decide that.

And your final note about socialism vs communism, is along my point as well. If you hear communism and all you think about is Gulags, I think you need to check yourself about what your own biases are. What the Communist manifesto says and what Soviet communism ended up being are not the same thing.

[nik-]

I don't think anyone is concerned with the name only. No one thinks the contents are good but it's actually bad because of the name. We're aware of the contents in general if not in detail.

[puckedoff]

Matty maybe you should read the Leap Manifesto and then report back on whether anything about it reminds you of communism. Its really a good read, something that has to be seen to be believed.

[nik-]

It reads like some out of touch hippie's stoned fantasy. It's so without substance that it's laughable.

"We can do it all maaaaaan, we just gotta take a Leap"

[Coach]

So would you guys suggest I take a few hoots before reading? Or would that have me dangerously close to agreeing with it before even starting it?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I know what Mein Kampf means, that's my point. They dont just stop using those words in things.

Sooo...you thought that using everyday terms like 'my' and occasional, more specific terms like 'manifesto' was pretty much the same thing?

It isnt and they arent.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by MattyC

So would you guys suggest I take a few hoots before reading? Or would that have me dangerously close to agreeing with it before even starting it?

No no, read it straight and tell me it doesn't sound like a drum circle of hippies talking about how they can fix the planet. It's shockingly short, it will probably take you like 10 minutes.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by MattyC

So would you guys suggest I take a few hoots before reading? Or would that have me dangerously close to agreeing with it before even starting it?

I'm not going to lie, it took like a third of a bottle of scotch for me to read through the Federal Budget.

[Fuzz]

On the plus side, this probably means there is no chance of an NDP federal government.

[kerriffic]

When I hear the name Leap manifesto I immediately think of China's Great Leap Forward that resulted in millions of deaths by rapidly transforming the country into a socialist society through rapid industrialization and collectivization.

I think they should have thought that name through a little better. Especially when the document ends with the line "now is the time to leap"

Also "The Leap Manifesto was initiated in the spring of 2015 at a two-day meeting in Toronto attended by 60 representatives from Canada’s Indigenous rights, social and food justice, environmental, faith-based and labour movements."

Seriously what is a food justice or faith based justice movement?

[peter12]

I mean, it is really, really hard to believe that we are having this conversation in 2016.