Teachers work "really hard'.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by driveway

Oil and Gas is the laziest industry IMO. Oil is easier an cheaper to get and produce than Coca-Cola, the vast majority of workers simply sit in offices all day and occasionally have meetings. There's travel, conferences, etc. most O&G office workers put in maybe 4 hours a day of real "work" and spend the rest of the day on the net/phone/reading reports, standing at the office cooler.

Then they have the audacity to a) claim they're worth 100k+ a year, and b) whine and complain when the market forces they love so much hurt their employability.

I'd sure love 140k a year to operate spreadsheets.

Coming from someone just starting off in engineering, it comes down to liability in my opinion. What's the worst outcome of having a crappy teacher? You get a new one the next year and your kid has to work harder to catch up in classes. Whats the worst outcome of a crappy engineer? Far worse.

Now if we're talking about someone outside of engineering, I'll agree there's lots of excess fat that could be trimmed, HR comes to mind. 4 hours a day of real work is massively selling them short, much in the same way me saying "coming up with a lesson plan to teach addition" isn't real work. It's pretty obtuse.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

No worries, I didn't take it snarkily. I've seen some deep utilities done in the winter before but it does slow down. However most of them aren't pulling in an experienced teachers salary while they work.

Yeah, even shallows slows right down in the winter now, developers are getting stingy.

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

So many teachers have never been outside of the education system, few have had to make a living doing anything other then going to school or teaching school. Occasional meaningless summer jobs aside, taking criticism is a foreign concept to teachers. 48 hours a week is nothing to many salaried workers in every industry, and I'd take managing 25 kids over managing 25 adults any day of the week.

I have a cousin that's a teacher, and she's a great person, very smart, taught in France for a year, speaks 3 languages fluently. But all she's done in her life is be involved in education, from going through school, right to teaching it. The result? She's weird, has a very skewed view of the world, doesn't really understand a lot of social and economic issues and gives terrible advice to people.

Not a hard fast rule, but now that I think about it all the best teachers I had in life are ones that had a different career before getting into education, and had some experience to draw on. Doesn't have to be anything fancy. One Math teacher I had used to be a Finance Manager at a car dealership, he had a working knowledge of how numbers work in the real world vs just what they say in a textbook. I hate and suck at anything to do with numbers, but I enjoyed his classes, did well in them.

[Clarkey]

If you take out the 'think of the children' factor what leg Teachers have to stand on?

There's a list of 100 if not 1000 professions that benefit society that aren't paid 6 digits. EMR, Police and Fire have a lot more stress but numbers and 'think of the children' sentiment trump's all.

Can we be honest and agree that while teaching is an important, challenging role that deserves to be compensated fairly, it's strong union, provincial cash bribes, and taking advantage of the over-emotional 'think of the children' sentiment has resulted in over payment that actually harms children? If the teachers take a 10-15% cut in pay the class size drops by a commensurate amount. A class of 25 suddenly becomes 21.

The counter argument is that it is a challenging role and the future of the children depends on it so any discussion around altering pay scales is off the scale... Well what if teachers were paid $150k per year? Where do you draw the line?

If it was up to me I would force teachers to take a 15% wage cut and reduce the number of teachers by 10%. I would also reduce provincial employees wages by 15% and cut the number of positions by 10%.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Clarkey

If you take out the 'think of the children' factor what leg Teachers have to stand on?

You could also say that if fires don't happen, what is the point of firemen at all? Talk about an overpaid bunch of lazy public servants, firemen would be, if fires didn't exist.

If you take out the entire point of any job (in this case, thinking of the children), nobody that does that job will have a leg to stand on, or deserve any pay at all.

[malcolmk14]

EDIT: Ugh, not worth it.

[boogerz]

Originally Posted by btimbit

...

Not a hard fast rule, but now that I think about it all the best teachers I had in life are ones that had a different career before getting into education, and had some experience to draw on. Doesn't have to be anything fancy. One Math teacher I had used to be a Finance Manager at a car dealership, he had a working knowledge of how numbers work in the real world vs just what they say in a textbook. I hate and suck at anything to do with numbers, but I enjoyed his classes, did well in them.

Similar to your anecdote, the two best teachers that I ever had (one in junior high and the other in uni) spent 10-20 years as investment bankers before switching careers.

Originally Posted by Slava

Except that here we have all spent at least a dozen years in that system. I get your point, I just think its a little off here. I actually think that a lot of the issue isn't the actual wage that teachers get paid. Its the other things like the issues with "bad" teachers who seemingly face no potential of job loss or can't be removed.

Then you pile on the benefits and specifically the defined benefit pension and I think that you have the main issues for the general public. I would hazard a guess that even young teachers don't love that the system allows some slackers to ride through with secure jobs and then we'll be paying for these people for their entire lives.

They should convert teaching into a regulated profession, akin to law, engineering, doctoring, nursing, etc. Poor teachers will still slip through the cracks, but at least there would be proper regulatory channels to challenge unqualified individuals.

[Fuzz]

Maybe we need multiple unions. They can compete for teaching contracts with school boards, which would give them reason to have the best teachers. Unions with crappy teachers wouldn't get contracts, and the teachers would want to get with the best unions. They would then also compete on cost, which should, in theory drive down spending by government.

I'm sure there are 100 unintended consequences here...do any other jurisdictions do this?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by btimbit

I have a cousin that's a teacher, and she's a great person, very smart, taught in France for a year, speaks 3 languages fluently. But all she's done in her life is be involved in education, from going through school, right to teaching it. The result? She's weird, has a very skewed view of the world, doesn't really understand a lot of social and economic issues and gives terrible advice to people.

That's pretty common. I grew up and went to school with a lot of people who went into teaching and other communications-oriented fields. Many are still friends today. In my experience, people who study literature and art and sociology typically do everything they can to avoid courses on economics. In journalism school, we needed to do a special section on statistics (a week or so of classes) to try equip students who had avoided that stuff all their lives with some grasp of empiricism. And for teachers, that ignorance doesn't go away once they enter their professions, because their contracts are set up so they don't have to ever make any individual choices about investment and retirement planning. It's all handled automatically.

The upshot is that among our educated populace, teachers are among the most ignorant about how capitalism and market economy work. About budgets and interest and trade and taxation. It contributes to the neglect in our K-12 education system about those subjects.

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

You could also say that if fires don't happen, what is the point of firemen at all? Talk about an overpaid bunch of lazy public servants, firemen would be, if fires didn't exist.

Actually, firefighters are lazy and overpaid. Do you know how few genuine fires there are in Calgary these days? How little work firefighters do in a typical week? How many of them double-dip with other jobs, and how young they retire? Many municipalities in Canada, especially in the older parts of the country, face fiscal ruin due to the salary and pension commitments to police and firefighters.

The $100,000 club: Who’s really making big money these days
Canada’s new upper class: firefighters, police officers, teachers


A nation of $100,000 firefighters

And $100K may not seem a lot to Calgarians. But nationally, where the average salary in Canada is $38K, it puts you in the top 6 per cent. And that's not even taking into account the defined benefit pension plans, and retiring 5-10 years younger than Canadians in the private sector.

[John Doe]

Originally Posted by Clarkey

If you take out the 'think of the children' factor what leg Teachers have to stand on?

There's a list of 100 if not 1000 professions that benefit society that aren't paid 6 digits. EMR, Police and Fire have a lot more stress but numbers and 'think of the children' sentiment trump's all.

Can we be honest and agree that while teaching is an important, challenging role that deserves to be compensated fairly, it's strong union, provincial cash bribes, and taking advantage of the over-emotional 'think of the children' sentiment has resulted in over payment that actually harms children? If the teachers take a 10-15% cut in pay the class size drops by a commensurate amount. A class of 25 suddenly becomes 21.

The counter argument is that it is a challenging role and the future of the children depends on it so any discussion around altering pay scales is off the scale... Well what if teachers were paid $150k per year? Where do you draw the line?

If it was up to me I would force teachers to take a 15% wage cut and reduce the number of teachers by 10%. I would also reduce provincial employees wages by 15% and cut the number of positions by 10%.

I am trying to follow this. You saying that if you cut teachers pay by 15% you will get smaller sizes, so I am assuming that you are using the same total amount of money but using it on more teachers ( but paying them less) in order to lower class sizes.
Then you suggest that maybe they should get $150k a year.
Finally, your recommendation is that they cut pay by 15% (make it less desirable to be a teacher) and positions by 10% (increasing class sizes) and this will fix the education system?

[John Doe]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

So many teachers have never been outside of the education system, few have had to make a living doing anything other then going to school or teaching school. Occasional meaningless summer jobs aside, taking criticism is a foreign concept to teachers. 48 hours a week is nothing to many salaried workers in every industry, and I'd take managing 25 kids over managing 25 adults any day of the week.

Right. Because 25 adults will act up, need constant supervision and generally goof off (you know, act like kids), where as 25 children will generally know what they are expected to do most of the time and for the most part work independently (or in other words, act like adults).

As for never taking criticism, if they somehow avoid it from their supervisors or the parents of their students they can always log onto CP and read the teacher bashing threads that seem to pop up every month or so.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by 4X4

About the only class that we didn't get to watch movies or documentaries in was math...

You didn't get to watch the video where Donald Duck learns about the Pythagorean Theorem?



I remember watching that one in Math 31.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

So many teachers have never been outside of the education system, few have had to make a living doing anything other then going to school or teaching school. Occasional meaningless summer jobs aside, taking criticism is a foreign concept to teachers. 48 hours a week is nothing to many salaried workers in every industry, and I'd take managing 25 kids over managing 25 adults any day of the week.

I hope you're joking. From their principals to the parents who constantly complain that their Johnny isn't getting enough one on one instruction, they get more than their fair share of criticism. That doesn't include the parents that complain that their little "angel" could not have done those bad things the teacher has said they did.

How would you like to manage a class of students mixed in with those with special needs who are always acting out? Better yet, working with those that have special needs because of a shortage of teachers aides. You make it sound like their job is a piece of cake.

The one I know also works evenings as a swin instructor giving lessons to kids as well as teaching water aerobics classes to adults. Hardly a meaningless job during the school year and in the summer.

[Sample00]

I probably shouldnt wade into this discussion but something is definately pulling me in...ugh...

just a couple of comments...

A) if you arent a teacher or you arent married/live with a teacher, you really have no idea of the work they do and the time they put in. Before I met my wife, I had the impression of most of the discussion, "what a great gig, easy hours, lots of vacation time, indoors...easy stuff". After I met my wife...holy crap, lots of hours, lots of planning, holidays - yes but some time are spent planning, marking, professional development, de-stressing". (And a side bar - when my wife was teaching, she taught Junior high/middle school. She's now in management and the hours and work load are incredibly insane)

B) there are definately good teachers and there are definately bad teacher. I am all for it..the bad teachers need to be held accountable and turfed if they dont improve. They are playing with our kids education and that responsibility should NEVER be taken lightly.

C) most teachers would agree that salaries are ok but lessen the class sizes. Its incredibly hard to teach to over 30+ kids and be effective and get all of them.

D) my wife had me come in and teach a class on banking/finance a number of years ago. After about an hour, I was ready to (figuratively speaking) kill the little #######s. How she did that for 25 years, I'll never know. Respect!

E) The one thing I would ask is that the pay grade system is equal across the province for teachers. Each school board has their own contract system with the government. That needs to change. One province, one contract for all teachers.

F) want to save some money??? get rid of all the different school boards. Have an advisory council made up of the public and private sector and that board gets to negotiate with the ATA and government. 50+ school boards with trustees that are elected and get paid a fair sum....that needs to be eliminated. That would save the education system a large amount of money.

Thats all I have..

[VladtheImpaler]

I find it shocking, SHOCKING I say, that this survey appeared just in time for the start of collective bargaining. S-H-O-C-K-I-N-G. And I am sure the people taking and administering the survey were unaware of what responses would best serve their interests...
I do agree that working with children is hard, and, as I have mentioned elsewhere, I personally find the Downton Abbey style of parenting very attractive and something to aspire to. That said, presumably one goes into teaching because one likes children and wants to work with them, so to then say this makes the job "harder" than other jobs seems disingineous. Presumably, you knew what you signed up for.

[Locke]

I dont believe that teachers dont work hard or that they're overpaid, it is what it is at the moment, I also dont believe they're underpaid and I do believe that their pension benefits and Union benefits are unsustainable to society as a whole.

But at the same time, and I want to be clear, when I'm talking about tightening up Government spending I'm not talking about massive layoffs of teachers or huge wage decreases, I'm all for leaving the front-line alone.

The issues within the Education system cannot be resolved until Management, Administration and Union excesses are dealt with.

The Education system, like many other Government run systems, has become an unwieldy behemoth.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Locke

I dont believe that teachers dont work hard or that they're overpaid, it is what it is at the moment, I also dont believe they're underpaid and I do believe that their pension benefits and Union benefits are unsustainable to society as a whole.

But at the same time, and I want to be clear, when I'm talking about tightening up Government spending I'm not talking about massive layoffs of teachers or huge wage decreases, I'm all for leaving the front-line alone.

The issues within the Education system cannot be resolved until Management, Administration and Union excesses are dealt with.

The Education system, like many other Government run systems, has become an unwieldy behemoth.

I think that hits the nail right on the head. No one wants to see less teachers, but these negotiations always seem to bring that up.

[Galakanokis]

I laugh in the general direction of your 48 hour work week. 9/10 hour days and on call 24/7. And the only time I seem to get time off is when I have to take a day off of work because school and daycare are closed while everyone else is still working. I've gone 21 days straight without a day off. Worked for 48 hours straight.

I get that teaching can be hard to some but quit all your belly aching about it. My buddy pulls in over $140 a year and he screwed the pooch more then anyone I've ever met. Don't like it? Get another job that pays the same and doesn't give you summers off.

I love teachers and fully agree that they need to be paid. The argument can just get tiring.

[Sainters7]

Teaching is kind of the (extended) family trade, I grew up surrounded by them. I've definitely known some whiners that can get tiring, but I've still never seen a profession that gets slagged on more than teaching. I think one reason why you keep hearing the same arguments, is because you keep hearing people complaining about them. If people slag nursing constantly, you're going to constantly hear them defending themselves. It's kind of how that works..

And 48hrs for veteran, 15-20+ year established teachers maybe. There's no way someone in their first 5 years of the profession only works 48hrs if you include lesson planning, emailing parents, coaching school teams that all newer teachers are pretty much expected to do...its way more than 48hrs. The stats for people leaving the profession in their first 3-5 years due to burnout is very high.

ps- and I'm not saying "poor them" either. Yeah they chose the job (which is an argument you could make for anyone complaining about their job, frankly), and most probably enjoy what they do. But it doesn't mean it's not difficult. I just think there's a view in society that the profession is way easier and shorter hours than it actually is, I think that's why they get frustrated at times.

[fundmark19]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Actually, firefighters are lazy and overpaid. Do you know how few genuine fires there are in Calgary these days? How little work firefighters do in a typical week? How many of them double-dip with other jobs, and how young they retire? Many municipalities in Canada, especially in the older parts of the country, face fiscal ruin due to the salary and pension commitments to police and firefighters.

You clearly don't know what firefighters do all day they don't just put out fires. They are first responders to all trauma events in our city. My dad who is suffering from mental illness and PTSD from events occurred in his 25 years keeping this city safe deserved every dollar he has made and continues to make with his pension.

Don't forget the Christmas, birthdays, kids special events you have to miss because you are on a shift and it can be hard to change it.

[peter12]

I think the number one reason why teaching is so hard is dealing with parents who are a lot like the posters in this thread.