The 2016 Toronto Blue Jays Thread

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Game over. Looked promising but the 8th killed them.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Zaun and Campbell don't sound too pleased with Gibby right now. Can't say I blame them, not sure why Leon came in when he did. Not the best time to bring him in to see what he can do.

It's very, very early but can't say I agree with how Gibbons has handled the team so far.

[Jiggy_12]

John Gibbons says calf strain for Josh Donaldson, not considered serious issue. #BlueJays

Calf strain for Josh Donaldson, per Gibby. Says it's been nagging him a few days. Gibby doesn't think it's a big deal. #BlueJays

Thank goodness.

[Resolute 14]

If you can only manage three runs off what the Rays threw out on the mound, you don't deserve to win.

[Senator Clay Davis]

I wonder how short Gibbons leash is this year. A bad start (say 6-12 or something) and I think he gets canned right away.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Neither Osuna and Storen pitched last night. The fact they weren't there in a one run game is inexcusable.

Storen is kind of excusable, he'd have been "used" three days in a row considering his warmup yesterday. What wasn't excusable was burning Chavez for 1 out yesterday (thus making him unavailable today) and managing to the save (which is the only reason to not use Osuna).

Let's just hope that the medicals come back positive on Donaldson.

[mrkajz44]

Originally Posted by Jiggy_12

John Gibbons says calf strain for Josh Donaldson, not considered serious issue. #BlueJays

Calf strain for Josh Donaldson, per Gibby. Says it's been nagging him a few days. Gibby doesn't think it's a big deal. #BlueJays

Thank goodness.

I dunno - this team has a history of downplaying injuries. It seems every time they say "day-to-day" it ends up as a 15 day DL stint at least.

[Jiggy_12]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Storen is kind of excusable, he'd have been "used" three days in a row considering his warmup yesterday. What wasn't excusable was burning Chavez for 1 out yesterday (thus making him unavailable today) and managing to the save (which is the only reason to not use Osuna).

Let's just hope that the medicals come back positive on Donaldson.

Yup. That right there is what gets me. You have your best reliever available for a high leverage situation and you keep him seated "in case" you still have the lead in the 9th inning. The old school bullpen management style is so frustrating to continue to watch year after year.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

I agree with pretty much everything Zaun is saying. It's the first series of the year and you can go 3-1. You have a day off before Friday's game. The season just started......why are we worrying about resting guys? This was a huge series, even if it is the first of the year. 3-1 is a lot better than 2-2.

[Jiggy_12]

Originally Posted by mrkajz44

I dunno - this team has a history of downplaying injuries. It seems every time they say "day-to-day" it ends up as a 15 day DL stint at least.

The only positive I suppose is it's something the team was already aware of prior, and still chose to play him, leaving me to believe it's not something serious. If it is - then I am really disappointed they would take that risk in game 4 of the season and an afternoon game after just playing the evening before.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Jiggy_12

The only positive I suppose is it's something the team was already aware of prior, and still chose to play him, leaving me to believe it's not something serious. If it is - then I am really disappointed they would take that risk in game 4 of the season and an afternoon game after just playing the evening before.

That scares me even worse. This team has a long history of trotting people out on the field when they should be sitting them down. There's an article last year with a couple of former Jays talking about the training/medical staff there and it's not very friendly. The Adam Lind one is pretty damning.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Storen is kind of excusable, he'd have been "used" three days in a row considering his warmup yesterday. What wasn't excusable was burning Chavez for 1 out yesterday (thus making him unavailable today) and managing to the save (which is the only reason to not use Osuna).

Let's just hope that the medicals come back positive on Donaldson.

Yup. Just terrible bullpen management all the way around no matter how you slice it.

I really hope Gibbons is gone soon, but I doubt that as the Jays aren't a team that's going to pay his salary while they pay someone else. He's also been handed the keys to Lambo so the team will win despite his deficiencies.

I noticed a couple of pages you ago you said that outside of the bullpen he is a good manager. Do you think it's because of his intangibles or something like that? In my opinion, from a pure strategy perspective he's pretty bad. His playing his "hunches" as routinely cost the Jays. People like to point towards the second half of last year, but Gibbons severely underachieved for the two and half years before that. I'd be much more comfortable with someone like Terry Francona or someone else of that ilk like running this team.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Gibby's "playing in dresses" comment is starting to pick up some steam among the PC crowd. Figured it would.

[flames_fan_down_under]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

His playing his "hunches" as routinely cost the Jays. People like to point towards the second half of last year, but Gibbons severely underachieved for the two and half years before that. I'd be much more comfortable with someone like Terry Francona or someone else of that ilk like running this team.

That's my feeling too. I have this impression that he really wants to manage those final innings and he can't get out of his own way sometimes. If its a high leverage situation get Osuna out there regardless of it being the 8th inning; "designated closers" coming in exclusively in the 9th, to me, is old school thinking and I don't agree with it.

I was hopeful that Shapiro was going to bring Francona with him but alas we are stuck with Gibby.

[flames_fan_down_under]

I will say this.

The Jays record at the Tropicana for a long time is not good so I will take 2-2. It definitely is a tough 2-2 as it could very well have been 4-0 but its not the end of the world.

Our starters, especially Sanchez and Stroman, looked really good too so that is a positive.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

I really hope Gibbons is gone soon

You shouldn't. The bullpen management was bad but if Gibby goes you ain't getting Francona... you're getting Wedge and that's no improvement.

[mrkajz44]

I'm still waiting for a manager to turn bullpen management on its head.

-Starter gets into trouble in the 5th of a one run game? Bring in the "closer" (ie your best guy
-3 run lead going into the 8th? Put out one of you long men and get the 6 out save
-Completely ignore lefty/righty and focus on individual histories between pitcher/hitter

It's time to start using your best guys in high leverage situations, and your not-so-good guys in low leverage situations. It doesn't matter what inning you are in.

It's a pipe dream, I know - but I think it will happen one day...

[JayP]

Originally Posted by mrkajz44

I'm still waiting for a manager to turn bullpen management on its head.

-Starter gets into trouble in the 5th of a one run game? Bring in the "closer" (ie your best guy
-3 run lead going into the 8th? Put out one of you long men and get the 6 out save
-Completely ignore lefty/righty and focus on individual histories between pitcher/hitter

It's time to start using your best guys in high leverage situations, and your not-so-good guys in low leverage situations. It doesn't matter what inning you are in.

It's a pipe dream, I know - but I think it will happen one day...

That is the one thing manager's do right. Focusing on a 20 at-bat sample is the kind of thing managers should be avoiding at all costs. There's not nearly enough data there for the numbers to mean anything.

[mrkajz44]

Originally Posted by JayP

That is the one thing manager's do right. Focusing on a 20 at-bat sample is the kind of thing managers should be avoiding at all costs. There's not nearly enough data there for the numbers to mean anything.

I'd have to disagree with you there. While it is probably true that 10-20 ABs is not a large enough sample size to truly determine how well you match up with a pitcher, I think the mental game greatly outweighs that.

With all the data that's available, I'd say most batters know how they match up against pitchers (especially when a new reliever comes in) before they go to the plate. If you know you are 1 for 14 with 5 Ks against the guy that just came into the game, you don't think that would be a large factor in your approach at the plate? Likewise if your lifetime stats are 6 for 10 with a couple of HRs, wouldn't you feel pretty good about the match-up?

I guess I think the mental game is huge, especially when a reliever is brought in for your specific at bat.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by mrkajz44

I'd have to disagree with you there.

No, he's right. The sample size is way to small to draw any meaningful conclusions while there is tons of data relating to the platoon advantage showing it's real.

I suppose with veterans you could look at how the batting profile matches up (Ex: how well the batter hits 78MPH curveballs, 92MPH 2-seam fastballs, 82MPH Change-ups with X & Y vertical and horizontal breaks if that's the stuff your guy has) you might have a meaningful data set but really it's far simpler and probably as effective to just use a guy's platoon split.

But we can agree on using game leverage rather then a completely arbitrary stat (the "Save") to dictate when you bring in your more effective reliever. Seriously... who decided that a "save" is more important then a "hold"? It's beyond dumb that you could have the 3-4-5 hitters coming up in the 8th inning of a close game and not use your best reliever so that he could be available to later (maybe) face the tail end of the batting order.