Duncan Keith match penalty against Coyle UPDATE: Suspended 6 games

[Resolute 14]

Players don't get paid for the playoffs, so no money to lose.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Duncan Keith is a player who should be getting up to the point of Raffe Torres/Chris Simon levels of suspension as he has ha habit of going out of his way to deliberately injure opponents.

It's the bolded that really gets it for me... the incidents he's involved in have had varying levels of actual injury associated with them, but they seem to have in common that they're all absolutely intentional. It's not hockey plays with bad timing, it's not even stupidity and recklessness in the course of trying to help the team (which is what I always saw Torres as), it's obvious intent to injure in more or less every case.

He's completely indifferent to the health of opposing players.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Can the people calling for 10+ games points to some comparables? From what I've seen, suspensions that length are reserved for hits from behind and/or hits to the head that can cause concussions. Slashing in the face and head area is usually a 3-4 game suspension. And that's what a player with no history of that kind of play would have got.

Keith's play was no different than McSorely's.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Keith's play was no different than McSorely's.

Keith's play was brutal but it wasn't that bad. McSorely was a full on, two-handed baseball swing to the temple. Keith's was a one-handed swipe to the nose while he was on his ass. I'm no physicist but I would wager that McSorely's swing was at least twice as powerful.

[thefoss1957]

Corsi...again, I disagree with the comparisons to Simon or Torres, with Keith...IMO, Keith has more of an ANGER MANAGEMENT problem, rather than, like Torres, running around and trying to injure players as a initiator. ALL the incidents with Keith have been RETALIATORY to a provocation. Doesn't excuse him, doesn't make him a "cleaner" player...just points out the difference between Torres, a truly "dirty player" and Keith, who can be provoked into a "dirty" retaliation.

With Torres, there is ALWAYS a chance that he is going to go out of his way to cripple a guy...with Keith, the majority of the time, he is going to make a clean "hockey" play, UNLESS, you have a. Hit him in the face with your shoulder WELL after a play, b. Slashed his bare hand in an attempt to injure him, c. Slewfooted him to force a turnover, and d. High Sticked him in the mouth AND slew footed him on the same play, which cover all four provocations that have been brought up on this thread.

Is retaliation acceptable? No, and to the Neanderthals that say, drop the gloves instead, I say, what makes a blunt force concussion with concentrated force superior, ethically, to other forms of retaliation?

But, to equate provoked, heat of the moment, retaliation (Keith, in 3 of the above instances), to conscious attempts to injure (Torres, repeatedly) you are not talking about the same degree of dirtbaggery.

[N-E-B]

This was worse than when Kassian caught Gagner with his careless high-stick a few years ago and IIRC Kassian got 10 games for that. The lack of consistency is what really bothers me.

Also I think the Keith-Torres comparisons are ridiculous hyperbole.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

This was worse than when Kassian caught Gagner with his careless high-stick a few years ago and IIRC Kassian got 10 games for that. The lack of consistency is what really bothers me.

Also I think the Keith-Torres comparisons are ridiculous hyperbole.

Kassian got five games for breaking Gagner'so jaw. If you use that as the comparison then Keith got more.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by thefoss1957

Corsi...again, I disagree with the comparisons to Simon or Torres, with Keith...IMO, Keith has more of an ANGER MANAGEMENT problem, rather than, like Torres, running around and trying to injure players as a initiator. ALL the incidents with Keith have been RETALIATORY to a provocation. Doesn't excuse him, doesn't make him a "cleaner" player...just points out the difference between Torres, a truly "dirty player" and Keith, who can be provoked into a "dirty" retaliation.

With Torres, there is ALWAYS a chance that he is going to go out of his way to cripple a guy...with Keith, the majority of the time, he is going to make a clean "hockey" play, UNLESS, you have a. Hit him in the face with your shoulder WELL after a play, b. Slashed his bare hand in an attempt to injure him, c. Slewfooted him to force a turnover, and d. High Sticked him in the mouth AND slew footed him on the same play, which cover all four provocations that have been brought up on this thread.

Is retaliation acceptable? No, and to the Neanderthals that say, drop the gloves instead, I say, what makes a blunt force concussion with concentrated force superior, ethically, to other forms of retaliation?

But, to equate provoked, heat of the moment, retaliation (Keith, in 3 of the above instances), to conscious attempts to injure (Torres, repeatedly) you are not talking about the same degree of dirtbaggery.

Does it really make a difference if it's unprovoked or an anger management issue? At the end of the day, he just can't seem to control himself and that's the issue. One of these days Keith really will actually 'McSorely' someone if if keeps on like this and all the explaining in the world won't help him one iota. The next time Keith does something like this, he needs a 20+ game suspension, he just doesn't get it. He has no respect for the players on the other team and, quite frankly, he's dangerous out there because of it. It makes no difference that Torres or Simon are 'worse', Keith is still dirtier than 99% of the players in the NHL.

[Robbob]

The anger defense is probably right up there with the concussion defense.

[N-E-B]

Originally Posted by Robbob

Kassian got five games for breaking Gagner'so jaw. If you use that as the comparison then Keith got more.

We were both wrong, he got 8.

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/C...225/story.html

[thefoss1957]

Fire...You really think that Torres running around PURPOSFULLY trying to hurt guys is the SAME as an anger reaction? I think premeditation makes a difference, in perception, and should, also in punishment.

Again, I am appalled by Keith's retaliation...but, IMO, Torres is far dirtier, because the intent is ALWAYS there, and strategically targeting opponent star players is beyond cynical.

[Robbob]

Meant as a response to NEB

Well 3 of those were preseason, so do they count? I guess if playoff games count as 2 then preseason count for half a game.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by thefoss1957

Fire...You really think that Torres running around PURPOSFULLY trying to hurt guys is the SAME as an anger reaction? I think premeditation makes a difference, in perception, and should, also in punishment.

What Keith does is far more premeditated than most of what Torres does.

The differences are that Keith doesn't have quite the body of work - yet - and that Keith gets star treatment.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by thefoss1957

Fire...You really think that Torres running around PURPOSFULLY trying to hurt guys is the SAME as an anger reaction? I think premeditation makes a difference, in perception, and should, also in punishment.

Again, I am appalled by Keith's retaliation...but, IMO, Torres is far dirtier, because the intent is ALWAYS there, and strategically targeting opponent star players is beyond cynical.

No it's not the same, Torres is far dirtier. He is one of the worst I've ever seen, Keith is not on that level. That's why he got 41 games and Keith got 6 (okay, oversimplified). Being predatory is worse than Keith randomly losing his mind, but only because of the incidence rate. If Keith went crazy as often as Torres went into "jaws mode", Keith would be just as bad IMO. Being unable to control yourself can be just as devastating as someone doing something wrong in purpose. For the record I don't think it's 100% black and white with Torres. I don't think he plans out his hits per se, I think he gets caught up in the moment, often trying to straddle the line. It doesn't excuse him (or Keith) but I think that is part of it anyway. They are both reckless, to different degrees, for different reasons and one breaks the rules more than the other.

I realize you weren't the one that brought that comparison up but I just feel it's irrelevant whichever way you look at it. Keith needs to be dealt with regardless of where he falls on the dirtbag scale.

[thefoss1957]

Fire...I absolutely agree with your statement above.

[Erick Estrada]

LOL are people actually comparing Torres to Keith? Keith is a highly intelligent player that has a bit of a mean/dirty streak in him. You know how wild animals can be unpredictable as no matter how you train them you just never know when they may snap and attack you? That's Raffi Torres as he's one of those guys that lacks the intelligence to ever be reformed. You just look into his eyes and you see a wild man which is what he was on the ice.

[Resolute 14]

Raffi Torres' 41-game suspension was the fifth or sixth of his career. Duncan Keith has now been suspended three times. And if Torres "lacks the intelligence", then I would say that Keith is a sociopath. The point of the comparison was not actually to compare them directly, but to state that it is time the NHL stops giving him the star player discount and starts handing out long term bans for his actions - exactly as the league was finally forced to do with Torres and Simon. Because history tells us that when a player like Duncan Keith has attempted to deliberately injure an opponent with targeted shots to the head on three separate occasions, there will be a fourth incident. And a fifth. And a sixth.

[CliffFletcher]

I don't buy into the conspiracy theory that the league disciplinary body treats star players any different from rank and file players. Yes, Keith's stickwork was suspendable. But the suspension wasn't at all out of line with what has been handed out in the past for similar incidents. A lot of the complaints in this thread just sound like sour grapes over the Wideman suspension.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

LOL are people actually comparing Torres to Keith? Keith is a highly intelligent player that has a bit of a mean/dirty streak in him. You know how wild animals can be unpredictable as no matter how you train them you just never know when they may snap and attack you? That's Raffi Torres as he's one of those guys that lacks the intelligence to ever be reformed. You just look into his eyes and you see a wild man which is what he was on the ice.

If anything your description fits Keith more than Torres. Torres is a reckless player who ends up hitting dirty. Keith is the guy who is unpredictable and can snap.

In a lot of ways Torres is more understandable because he has to play on the line to have a job in the NHL (same with Rinaldo and other guys of that ilk that the league should be trying to get rid of). Keith doesn't have to go around smashing guys in the head with his stick to have a job.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I don't buy into the conspiracy theory that the league disciplinary body treats star players any different from rank and file players. Yes, Keith's stickwork was suspendable. But the suspension wasn't at all out of line with what has been handed out in the past for similar incidents. A lot of the complaints in this thread just sound like sour grapes over the Wideman suspension.

First off, I was fully on board with the Wideman suspension, so your end comment is dismissed as the misplaced attempt at deflection it was.

Second, lets see your comparables. Can you show me all the times a player - who already had a multiple-incident history of deliberately targeting an opponent's head - was then suspended again for deliberately, and with full intent, slashing an opponent in the face?